1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

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1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

Post by timmy » Wed May 07, 2014 4:55 am

There has been much discussion on IFG regarding the safety of John Browning's 1911 pistol and also of the Ashani, which is based on the Colt M1903 "Pocket Pistol."

I cannot address the Ashani, having not examined one, however I will discuss some aspects of the M1903 Pocket Pistol.

The first concept that needs to be addressed is the inertia firing pin of the 1911 and the later M1903. Is it safe to carry the 1911 "cocked and locked," i.e., a round in the chamber, hammer cocked, and the safety applied? Is i safe to carry the M1903 in this same condition?

The answer, in most cases, is "NO."

Here is a picture of the 1911 action, showing the firing pin:

Image

The thing to note here is tha the firing pin, if the hammer is down, will not touch the primer of the round in the chamber. So, how does the firing pin detonate the primer?

The answer is, the hammer hits the firing pin with such force that the inertia of the firing pin is sufficient to set off the primer. It has been known for quite some time that, if a 1911 was dropped "cocked and locked" from a sufficient height, the firing pin could move with enough inertia to cause the weapon to discharge. You may take Massad Ayoob's word for this:
Let’s look inside the guns in question. Not until the 1930s did the 1911 pistol get a positive internal firing pin lock, the Swartz safety, and Colt history students know that it was so complex and expensive to manufacture that after production was stopped with the coming of WWII, Colt never offered that option again. Not until the Series ’80 modification were Colt 1911s truly “drop-safe” again.

The 1911, in its many incarnations from many manufacturers, is sometimes drop-safe and sometimes not. The Colt Series ’80 and later Series ’90 are mechanically drop-safe, thanks to an internal firing pin lock that is actuated by the trigger system. Para USA pistols use the same safe system, having licensed it from Colt. The Sig Sauer 1911 pistols use it too. A number of years ago, the great modern gun designer Nehemiah Sirkis resurrected the Swartz internal firing pin safety concept, which works off the grip safety that is standard on 1911s, for Kimber. If your Kimber has a Roman numeral “II” suffix on its model number, it is so equipped. It works better today because modern CAD-CAM engineering and manufacturing makes it more cost effective to produce. Smith & Wesson uses a similar concept on their SW1911 pistol. Other companies—Springfield Armory, Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, and many more—chose to go the “drop-safe” route with light firing pins and extra-heavy firing pin springs, so the momentum of impact couldn’t send a heavy pin forward against light spring resistance and into the base of a primer with enough force to make the weapon fire. Any of these systems can work. 1911 experts say firing pin springs should be changed every 3,000 to 5,000 rounds to prevent spring fatigue and weakening.
(from http://www.tactical-life.com/combat-han ... discharge/)

The Series 80 and after do have this firing pin locking mechanism, as Ayoob says. This is how it works:

Image

You will see that, when the trigger is pulled, a vertical locking pin disengages from a slot in the firing pin, allowing it to move. This prevents the weapon from going off when it is dropped.

It may be pointed out that dropping a 1911 from such a height is very unlikely, and that may be true. But this is a situation that has been noted as possible long ago, and Colt addressed it unsuccessfully long ago, but more successfully recently. Some copies of the 1911 use this same kind of mechanism. (It is used in other pistols, such as the Czech CZ52.) There is a version of the firing pin block that is actuated by the grip safety used in another 1911 clone.

So, whether you consider a 1911 unsafe in "cocked and locked" condition is a matter of judgment. However, I submit that, unless a person knows the principles of the inertia firing pin and are familiar with handling the 1911, they are not able to properly judge the safety of the weapon. All that person is doing is repeating something he heard or read.

Regarding the M1903, the answer is a little more complex. The first design of M1903s, as designed by John Browning, did not have an inertia firing pin. Nor did they have a half-cock notch. The idea of the half cock notch is, if for some reason the sear does not catch on the full cock notch, the sear will catch in the half cock notch without striking the firing pin. Later in the production of M1903s and M1908s (the 380 ACP version of the "Pocket Pistol"), the inertia firing pin and the half cock notch were added.

So, can an M1903/M1908 go off if it is carried "cocked and locked"? Yes! Here is a quote from the same article by Massad Ayoob, cited above:
Firearms journalism recently experienced the tragic death of one of our own. Many of you have read the excellent writing of Steve Malloy. He was a regular writer for SWAT Magazine. Here are some excerpts from his memorial, as printed in the August, 2009 edition of SWAT and written by editor Denny Hansen, a man I’ve long known to be a total professional.

Denny wrote, “Longtime SWAT Magazine Contributing Editor Steve Malloy was killed in a tragic shooting accident at his home on April 16. As best as can be determined, Steve had a pistol in his waistband and when he bent over to tie his shoes, the pistol fell onto the floor and discharged—the bullet struck Steve in the chest. He was found in the garage, apparently trying to leave the home to summon aid.”

...

I’m told the weapon in question was a 1903 Colt Pocket Model pistol, carried with a live round in the chamber. It was a classic old gun that is revered by those who appreciate fine firearms. The 1903 .32 and the 1908 .380 Pocket Models have a long and honored history. Such guns were issued to Generals like Patton and Eisenhower in WWII, and to OSS personnel in the same time period. Hell, my grandfather shot an armed robber in self-defense early in the 20th century with a 1903 Colt .32 that’s still in the family: that particular gun was the first semi-automatic pistol I ever fired, before my age had two digits in it. Slim and compact, comfortable to carry, sweet of trigger pull and deadly accurate and reliable, it was the kind of pistol a “gun guy” like Malloy would appreciate.

It also did not have a secured firing pin and was not “drop-safe” against inertia fire. You don’t carry a 1903, so it doesn’t matter? Well, if you carry a 1911, it does matter, because both mechanisms were designed by John M. Browning and are remarkably similar. You aren’t going to ever drop your gun? Good that you’re the first perfect human who’s immune to error. It’s safe to say that neither you nor I are the Second Coming of the perfect human incapable of making a mistake. And these old Colt designs are not by any means the only autopistols that are not “drop-safe”!
However, this does not mean that the 1911 and the M1903 have an equal degree of safety when carried with a round in the chamber, cocked, and locked. They most certainly do not. This is because of the way the safety works. The 1911 has quite a marvelous design. Note:

Image

This is how the lockwork of the 1911 looks when the safety is applied. Notice how the safety blocks the sear from moving away from the hammer and firing the pistol.

Image

This is how the lockwork looks when the safety is removed. You can see, by comparing the two pictures, that the sear is no longer blocked from being tipped out of the hammer's full cock notch.

What is not so apparent in these two pictures is how the hammer is also blocked. Note that, on the hammer, there is a cut away portion of the hammer below the pivot pin. Also note that, above the surface on the safety that blocks the sear from moving, there is another vertical surface above it. The cut away portion of the hammer will strike this part of the safety if, for some reason, the sear should become disengaged.

What this means is, if you were to drop a 1911 on the hammer when it was in the cocked and locked position, it might be conceivable that the end of the sear could break, or the notch in the hammer could break. Even if one or both of these things happened, the hammer would still need to break the thick stud on the safety that blocks it. It is this design feature that makes the "locked" part of "cocked and locked" very strong in the 1911.

The M1903's safety, in contrast, only locks the sear in place into the hammer's cocking notch. It does not block the hammer. Therefore, the cocked and locked position of the safety on the M1903 is not as secure as it is on the 1911. (I'm sorry, I don't have a picture of this to post.)

It may be objected that the hammer on the M1903 is shrouded and cannot be struck directly when dropped. This argument does have merit. However, one should also consider that a direct blow on the hammer is not all that may be involved in a dropping accident. If parts are worn or damaged, a risk still exists that these parts can fail to hold.

I would furthermore like to mention the grip safety.

On the M1903 pistol, the grip safety, when engaged (when the pistol isn't being gripped), does engage the sear and prevent its movement. However, on the 1911, note this picture and compare it with the two above of the 1911:

Image

In this case, you can see that the 1911 grip safety doesn't even block the sear from moving out of the hammer's cocking notch. All it does is keep the trigger from being pulled. Therefore, it really doesn't make the 1911 very much safer.

Conclusion:

Some propose using a titanium firing pin in a 1911, since a firing pin of decreased mass will not have as much inertial energy when the pistol is dropped, and be less likely to detonate a primer. Some propose a heavier firing pin spring to accomplish the same thing. These solutions may prevent an accidental discharge in situations where one might occur when a pre-Series 80 1911 is dropped. However, the firing pin is not positively locked in either of these two solutions.

As you can see, in this situation, the answer to the question: "Is it safe to carry a 1911 cocked and locked, with a round in the chamber," isn't so straightforward for 1911s before the Series 80. However, I have provided the facts here to our members, and you can take these facts, in addition to the condition of your firearm, into account when making your decisions. I think that this is a better course of action than reading some possibly (probably?) unreliable opinions on the internet or listening to some self-appointed "Expert" hold forth as the font of all knowledge.
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Re: 1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

Post by farook » Wed May 07, 2014 11:52 am

Timmy What would IFG be without you
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Re: 1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

Post by Kittu » Wed May 07, 2014 1:11 pm

Timmy
thanks for great information

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Re: 1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

Post by Vikram » Wed May 07, 2014 5:20 pm

Timmy,

Thanks a bunch for the pictorial explanation. Though I knew of the safety mechanism on 1911, did not have an idea how it operates physically.Now I have a fair idea.

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Re: 1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

Post by Grumpy » Thu May 08, 2014 2:01 am

Whilst we have to accept that there is a theoretical possibility of a 1911 in `cocked and locked` condition firing if dropped, finding actual examples of such an incident occurring is extremely difficult and even the ( very ) few anecdotal examples are subject to caveats such as the guns concerned being modified.
The Colt Series 80 firing pin safety ( actually introduced in 1983 if I remember correctly ) definitely removes this theoretical risk however it should be remembered unless physically labelled as a `Series 80` no Colt 1911 will have the firing pin block and also that since the early 2000s Colt themselves have produced various non-Series 80 1911s which do not have the firing pin safety..... which would seem to indicate that even in the highly litigious USA Colt have no major concerns about the safety issue.
Although the use of a titanium firing pin will reduce the risk of a 1911 discharging when dropped in `cocked and locked` condition, the use of a higher power firing pin return spring is AT LEAST as effective as using a titanium firing pin - use of both is an even better idea.
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Re: 1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

Post by timmy » Thu May 08, 2014 3:24 am

Grumpy, I do agree that the possibility of a 1911 suffering discharge on being dropped could be remote. My understanding is that, a number of decades ago, the military conducted drop tests and demonstrated the problem. As you note, I am having difficulty in finding documentation of this testing. While only one man's analysis (albeit, an educated one), I do respect Massad Ayoob's expertise. Still, for me, the important piece of data in this story is that Colt spent a lot of money and development on finding a solution -- perhaps too much money for a solution to a problem that didn't exist.

As I pointed out in the original post, each person should review the facts (as opposed to the official proceedings of the "Old Stove Society" -- whether in the corner of the local store or on line) and make his own decision. For myself, I wouldn't carry a 1911 in a waistband with a round in the chamber, "cocked and locked" or not. For me, an examination of the design of the safety arrangements and an examination of my own pistol shows that these provisions are excellent. I would like to stress that this is my own conclusion, and it's also based on my own gun. Something that is worn, in poor repair, or has been "modified" could well cause me to reach a different conclusion for that firearm. Like many of Browning's designs, it is robust and elegant, but also has lots of close tolerances that need to be considered on an individual basis.

So, the issue here is not the safety or carrying it "cocked and locked" or with the hammer down, it is an issue that concerns the inertial firing pin and having a round in the chamber. For the 1911, this is something that all indications (for me) point to a problem, for the reasons I stated, but for which I'm still looking for the military test results.

The key words are the ones in your final observation:
Grumpy wrote:Although the use of a titanium firing pin will reduce the risk of a 1911 discharging when dropped in `cocked and locked` condition, the use of a higher power firing pin return spring is AT LEAST as effective as using a titanium firing pin - use of both is an even better idea.
The operative words in this statement are "will reduce the risk." Risk is present, so how much risk does the owner/carrier want to assume?

(Note here that the issue is not only present in "Condition 1" or cocked and locked, it is also present in "Condition 2" or a round in the chamber and the hammer down. The firing pin is the issue, not the hammer/sear/trigger assembly.)

But for the Pocket Pistol, M1903 and M1908, the incident is reported in my quote and in the link I've included, and that ought to be enough. As I was taught when young, "A word to the wise is sufficient." The weapon is not safe to carry with a round in the chamber, no matter what version of production is involved.
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Re: 1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

Post by Grumpy » Thu May 08, 2014 4:05 am

Timmy, I think your post is balanced and fair and your conclusion is reasoned and reasonable. I would carry a 1911 `cocked and locked` but that is a decision based on my experience of building, repairing and shooting a great many 1911s. Our opinions differ but both are CONSIDERED opinions.
I don`t believe there is any difference of opinion regarding the safety of the Series 80 1911s being carried `cocked and locked` except that for many the concept of `cocked and locked` carry is psychologically difficult if not impossible.
Regarding the `Pocket Pistol, M1903 and M1908` there can be no argument that the guns are unsafe to carry with a round in the chamber.
I share your respect for Massad Ayoob by the way.
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Re: 1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

Post by timmy » Thu May 08, 2014 4:18 am

For myself, I have a Series 70. I would still carry it in the holster cocked and locked, but I don't use it as a "carry gun." It is a toy I take to the range, and I don't have to worry about this sort of thing.

I have two holsters. One is a GI issue flap holster and I think it's pretty safe. The 1911 won't pop out of that. The other is a Bianchi with a good thumb strap. That one would also be OK for the most part.

When I was young, before I understood how the safety worked, I would stuff it in my waistband and go around with it in Condition 2. I didn't trust the "cocked and locked" part. When I learned how the safety worked and that it had a very positive hammer block (which I learned by taking it apart), Condition 1 was OK by me. But for sure, I'd never stuff it in my waistband anymore.

Of course, there's no worry there, as there's no more room in that area for additions.
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Re: 1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

Post by timmy » Thu May 08, 2014 4:23 am

I would like to add, that there are some folks who believe that there is the 1911 and then there's everything else.

I love my Colt double actions, but I belong to the type who think that the 1911 is the "one and only." It's the best designed handgun ever, in my opinion. But others see things differently, I know.
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Re: 1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

Post by herb » Thu May 08, 2014 4:59 am

Timmy - Thanks for taking the time to provide such a detailed explanation, found it very informative and enjoyable.

Ruger stayed with the 70 design with a light titanium firing pin and a heavy spring for its 1911's to ensure that it passed the drop test.

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Re: 1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

Post by Grumpy » Thu May 08, 2014 5:48 am

The 1911 is an a very good design but, more than that, it an astonishingly good package as it was designed for use with the .45 ACP. It`s certainly amongst the best semi-auto hand guns ever but I would have to differentiate semi-autos from revolvers.
There are better semi-auto designs ( in my opinion ) - eg, the SIG 210 - and several that are comparable to the 1911 in design such as the H&K P9S ( especially in .45 ACP ) the H&K P7 variants and the CZ75. The problem with the SIG 210 is that it was only available in 9mm and 7.65...... but I really craved a 210-8 9mm. The H&K P9S wasn`t really my `thing` but I owned a P9S Target 9mm for a while. The squeeze cocker H&K P7 in 9mm was a wonderful pistol. I had a P7M13 and would really have liked a P7M13SD but there was no chance of getting hold of one. The The CZ75 is just a very good pistol. I`ve never tried a CZ97B .45 ACP so can`t comment.
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Re: 1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

Post by Grumpy » Thu May 08, 2014 5:49 am

How old is your Series 70 Timmy ?
Make a man a fire and he`ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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Re: 1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

Post by timmy » Thu May 08, 2014 6:27 am

I don't know. I got it used in about 1983 or 1984, I think.

It was practically new at that time.
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Re: 1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

Post by timmy » Thu May 08, 2014 6:40 am

Image

Pachmayr grips, a long trigger, and I polished the feed ramp. Other than that, it's bone stock.

I love the Pachmayrs!
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Re: 1911 & M1903 Colt Pistols - Safety and Design

Post by Grumpy » Thu May 08, 2014 6:46 am

Does it still have the original `Accuriser` finger collet bushing and tapered barrel ?
Make a man a fire and he`ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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