Damascus Steel 1911 pistols

[mehulkamdar]

It is not very often that fine pistols are included in the category Fine Guns because of the anti handgun attitude of the gun abolitionists worldwide. In the past, though, fine handguns were considered a very valuable possession and the gift of a fine, custom handgun was one of the highest honours that could be given to someone.

This company http://www.tusseycustom.com/gunphotos-damascus.htm makes the custom pistols for several notables including actor Steven Seagal who is a very fine shot and a real life Aikido master. To me, the pictures of these guns are stunning - as much a masterpiece as a rifle from Hartmann und Weiss or a shotgun from Boss or Purdey. I would like the opinions of other members here - do handguns like these belong in the category Fine Guns?

Cheers,

Mehul

[eljefe]

I have been accused of having Philistine tastes Mehul!
BUT- I agree on including Handguns in fine guns.Some of the examples of 'fine Handguns' I have seen/ read about surely rank amongst the finest of the gun makers art.
Best
Axx

[Vikram]

You are wrong,Mehul. They belong in Finest Guns. . They are beautiful.But, are they Damascus or titled so because the engraving resembles a Damascus pattern?Thanks for sharing those pics.

Best- Vikram

[mehulkamdar]

Vikram,

This is modern Damascus Steel made in Sweden by someone I know - check out Per Billgren's website http://www.damasteel.se

There is also a company in Austria that makes damascus barrels from Damasteel blocks http://www.gobec.at

Also, the Brno company (now separated from the huge CZ enterprise) offer damascus guns - click on Exclusive at http://www.zbrojovkabrno.com/arms/eng/sluzby.htm

Also the Swedish Flodman company http://flodman.com/press/flodman_guns.pdf offer Damascus barreled shotguns.

Considering how the British names are now giving in to tradition and introducing hammer shotguns etc - Purdey announced that they would offer hammer 20 bores in addition to their 12s and rumours have it that Holland and Holland may also introduce hammerguns - it may not be long before Damascus barreled guns are available from the Brits.

Mehul

[Sakobav]

Vikram,

This is modern Damascus Steel made in Sweden by someone I know - check out Per Billgren's website http://www.damasteel.se

There is also a company in Austria that makes damascus barrels from Damasteel blocks http://www.gobec.at

Also, the Brno company (now separated from the huge CZ enterprise) o

Mehul

Guys a novice Question, what is Damascus -- its type of steel and what are its benefits over other steel? Thanks

[eljefe]

Navdeep,
Until Mehul posts a treatise we can cut and preserve on damascus, metallurgy and fine guns, hope this will suffice
Its a process of bonding 3 layers of steel 2 outer low carbon with an inner high carbon-by heating and hammering them-welding if you please,this process is repeated and the blocks of metal stretched and doubled many times(sometime reaching layer count in hundreds) upon themselves until the steel has exceptional strength and malleability.The samurai sword can be, bent to nearly 90 degrees and not break.
This is an old process, with origin in many countries, from India to damascus-where the swords made by this process had an exceptional strength and could retain a very keen edge, to Japan, where the samurai dai katana immortalised the process.
The finished steel has wavy patterns on it, which are clearly visible on the pistols in Mehul's links.
In mid to late 1800's,a cheaper quality of 'damascening' ing was used to make shot gun barrels by rolling flats of damascus steel around a mandrel and hammering into shape for shotgun barrels.This was fine for black powder but some low quality steels used for this faux damascus did not last under the pressures of modern nitro cellulose based powders and 'Uncurled' hence the caveat about using modern smoke less loads in some iffy models of so called damamscus barelled shotguns.
Given a Chance, Herr Krupp would have loved to use this process for his big bertha at the seige of paris!
Modern damascus is absolutely safe and besides the strength, has a very aesthetic appeal to the finished product, not to mention a 4-10 fold increase in price
As always , members please feel free to add your inputs and correct -its been a while since I expounded on this fine topic and memory is the second thing to go wit age!!
Best
Axx

[Sakobav]

Thanks Asif

[Vikram]

Mehul,

Thanks very much for the links and the info. I really wonder how you come out with these very little known makers. The damasteel sites I saw them earlier, of course from your posts.I am speaking of Tussey's pistols.

Jefe,

If I might add...

Navdeep,

It's a very labour intensive process and hence involves heavy costs in the modern day.Back in the days of 19th century, the labour in the Birmingham smithies really bent their backs. Good quality Damascus guns that pass the proof house, shoot modern cartridges without any danger.There are many,everywhere i.e UK,Europe,US etc, who shoot Damascus guns exclusively.But, this is a real bone of contention between shooters who shoot them and who don't.

Mehul and Jefe,

Re Damascus, I have real scoop of sorts with me. I got it from one of the finest gun makers in the world.Yes sir,no less.Of that, later.

Best- Vikram

[mehulkamdar]

Asif,

Thanks for your post which is on the dot - I must add one thing - Damascene barrels are not real Damascus steel but a surface treatment to give the appearance of Damascus. It was the Damascene barrels, as you correctly point out that ruined the reputation of Damascus and fluid steel took over. One of the biggest advantages of Damascus barrels in shotguns was that due to the laminated structure of the metal, the sound of firing them "rang" less as the metal absorbed the impact of the shot better. This was a factor that kept Purdey, arguably one of the best gunmakers in the world, making Damascus barrels for long after fluid steel was introduced until they ran out of a source of Damascus themselves.

Also, the bogey offered by some that Damascus was somehow weaker than fluid steel was recently laid to rest in a detailed test by the prestigious Double Gun Journal who destruction tested identical fluid steel and Damascus steel barrels and found the Damascus barrels actually stronger.

Vikram,

Tussey custom are a very well known firm in the USA. Recently a German company has also started making Damascus pistols - I shall post their website link as soon as I get the details from a company in Germany. I'm glad that everyone seems to consider these pistols gun art - I thought I was one of a minority earlier.

I have been looking forward to this piece as has John - let other members have the good fortune of enjoying it whenever you find time. Thanks on behalf of the entire group in advance.

Mehul

[eljefe]

Mehul,
Murad Sayen from your part of the world turned out some superlative cutlery using the old hammer forge technique in the 80's.He's was a big honcho in the knifemakers guild of US
Then I went under the rock and slime and lost it completely
Coming back and smelling the coffee, I those pics of damascus steel 45's were breathtaking.
The resurgence of damascus in firearms and useage in handguns especially, is a very welcome move and hopefully , more will follow.At least we can drool.
best
Axx

[mehulkamdar]

Asif,

http://www.curioushouse.com make Damascus steel swords and daggers in India, mostly for export. They also make fine muzzleloading shotguns though these are also mostly exported. I am sure that if they were told of a market in Damascus knives, they would happily make the blades etc. Mr Gajendra Singh Parihar who owns the company and his son Pradeep are very nice people to talk to. Do check their website out and if you travel to Rajasthan you could meet them. I am told that they have some very nice British guns for sale as well. Tell them Hi from me.

Cheers,

Mehul

[Mack The Knife]

I am sure that if they were told of a market in Damascus knives, they would happily make the blades etc.

http://www.worldknives.com/manufacturer.asp?manuid=41

[mehulkamdar]

Mack The Knife,

Thanks for the link. If you visit AR or the NE forums, do post it there - they have knife forums and it would be nice to see a desi company there among the US and European greats.

Cheers,

Mehul

[Mack The Knife]

it would be nice to see a desi company there among the US and European greats.

Assuming they got their heat treatment right. Otherwise it would be more egg on our face where guns and knives are concerned.

Mack The Knife

[HSharief]

I had givien this link to Mehul sometime back and I'm sure everyone here will enjoy the craftsmanship too: http://www.louderthanwords.us/forum/

When looking at the pictures, try to identify the subtle attention to detail, the smooth seamless lines and how the pieces fit together as if they belong there. A Yost 1911 is in my future, Insha-Allah. Some of the leather on there is breath taking too.