Indians For Guns

I have been doing some reading on the .357 magnum.There seems to be some debate on a few points, which i present -

1) The " Man Stopper " debate.People seem to agree that a 125 grain round will drop men like flies, and deer at range.Is this a legend or fact? Bullet placement aside, they say a .357 mag will most likely make it out of the other side due to the tremendous velocity.Heck, they point out the .45 ACP is quite tame in comparison.

2) The " Ultimate Caliber " debate.People seem to say the .357 mag is the best balanced cartridge there is.It can be used to hunt medium size game, reliably defend one self.Is this true, because i am inclined to agree?

3) The " Hell no! " debate.Some people say the .357 mag will render you deaf, with broken wrists and with bad shooting habits such as flinching.Is this true?

In addition, i did a search and found a few threads on the .357 mag revolvers.People said they were too darn expensive to bother with, and ammo would be a serious issue ( Very true ).But in an ideal world where you had the money and could travel to buy ammo, is it something you would carry? I would really like to have one some day if it is a sensible choice.What are your arguments for'/against a .357 mag revolver as an edc?

I am quite fascinated by the colt python.How much do these run for...? Does any one on the forum have/shot one and is it worth the effort and money? They are investments abroad, they must be coveted rarity here.

There is also the question of cheating.Some shady conversions of .38's and blanks and the like which were pointed out in the threads i found.

Perhaps the very fortunate men on the American continent could chip in with your input? The .357 mag would have been the equivalent of a trans am firebird there....a must have!

Any one goes to some store, the simple question they ask that why you need certain gun ( Firearm )

Reason for that is what's your requirements, you needs one, you wants one, you affords one, you can have one.

Not sure what continent you are in and availability of such firearm but we can't hunt with handguns here in Canada

I personally can not refer to " Man Stopper " thing but there are lot of other studies that even .22 can stop some one in tracks. Many times flashing a firearm is enough or a sticker on the car could be a good deterrent.

People hunt with .357 in US and have good results and depending your shot placement.

"Breaking Wrists" don't think so. Yes it is "Ultimate Caliber" in many good hands and it's been that way for over a century now.

Pardon my language if it offend any one but not directed at you personally but are we just talking.

Any gun that goes bang when you needs it is a good gun either Python or any other - Haji

I have never had to fire a gun in self defense, so I have absolutely no experience in that area.

I have fired more than my share of 357 rounds, and like any gun if you shoot it without hearing protection you will suffer hearing loss, so don't do that!

In a handgun with a 6" barrel they are not bad to shoot, but in a 4" barrel the recoil is not bad but you get a "shock" to your hand, or at least I do, that is similar to using a hammer with a bare metal handle and hit something hard and it will make your hand sting, sometimes painfully. Anyway, the 357 and 44 magnums will do that to me. I'm apparently not the only person as they make specially cushioned shooting gloves now:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/112519 ... ss-leather

Anyway, you do not need those unless you shoot 50 or so rounds a week.

If a person liked a particular 357 pistol I'd say get it (well, actually I say that every time someone likes something, whether it is a gun or a coffee maker or a motorcycle....) as if 357 ammunition is difficult to obtain 38 special cartridges can be used just as easily which is what many if not most shooters commonly do here.

Regarding hunting, using a 357 from a handgun is a "master's weapon," in my opinion. It should be used only by people who practice regularly and who are expert hunters. In saying this, I would note that few people in the world are as guilty as hunters and gun people when it comes to objectively rating their proficiency. My rough estimate would be that much fewer than 1% of all shooters have any business being in the field, hunting deer with a 357. Just a study of ballistics and the performance of the 125 gr bullet you refer to over 50 yards will explain my opinion.

A for a man-stopper and the 357 being so superior to. 45 ACP, I say "rubbish." Like Mark, I have not had to use a weapon is self defense ( although a couple of times seemed too close). However, there are so many opinions on this that one can find any number of so-called "experts" to support any opinion you may like best at any given moment. Frankly, I seriously doubt that any of this "best" business is very constructive. Read a few reliable and unbiased comparisons, along with some ballistic information, head for the range and do a bunch of shooting of the guns and cartridges you have in mind, and pick what you like. Leave the arguing to the armchair shooters who have more mouth than experience -- nobody can teach that type anything anyway.

The Python is a beautiful weapon. If its in good shape, you will not go wrong with one.

You should ALWAYS wear hearing protection, but they are your ears, and you will have to live with the consequences. Shooting 22 rifles, I will forego wearing muffs. But from a 22 handgun, the blast is more than enough to make hearing protection mandatory.

I have large hands. The most powerful handguns I've shot are strong hand loads from 45 Colt and 44 Magnum. I my old age, I don't like shooting magnum pistol cartridges because of the blast. I don't mind the recoil. Where, in my youth, you would find me shooting my Ruger 45 Colt a millimeter short of destruction and feel a considerable concussion through the feet, I now prefer to shoot 38 Special with loads so light that they have just enough power to ensure that the bullets clear the barrel reliably. I may not say so, but you can be assured that, when hear people talking about shooting 357s and 44 Mags and breaking their wrists, I am certainly thinking that the person who claims such things is totally "3 bags full," as the British say. This kind of talk usually comes from guys who are very insecure about their manhood and who are trying to compensate for this with big talk and tall tales. Walk away from such people.

With that said, if you have small hands, you may have more difficulty controlling larger and more powerful handguns, or you may find shooting them to be unpleasant. In such cases, use shooting gloves, as Mark suggests, and/or find some different shaped grips.

I have shot rifles from the bench that would bring tears to my eyes. I was young and went ahead and shot them anyway. Shooting 60 to 80 rinds of 7.62x54r from the bench a day would make my shoulder sore, so that I couldn't sleep on that side at night. That's just me. Everyone is different. After you try shooting whatever interests you, yourself, you will find that some of what people have told you is useful, and a whole lot of it is hot air.

As far as here in the USA, the chatter and talk auto ut "hot" cartridges has passed the 357 by many decades ago. Some people like it, and others go for other things. Right now, 9mm is hot, and some of the great big cartridges interest some. This matches with your car comparison, because after 1969, Pontiac Firebirds became bloated whales and were not the hottest thing on the street. Before that, a well tuned 67 to 69 with engines like Ram Air III or Ram Air IV 400s were fairly hot, but there were always faster cars from Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler, with more powerful engines. Even a Buick Stage I 455 was a great bet for the street and could give a big fat Firechicken fits. Those Pontiacs with big eagle decals and scoops all over them were more show than go -- this from someone who owned a 65 tripower GTO and a 64 GTO with a fairly hot 69 400 in it. There were hot Pontiacs back in the 60s and 70s, but the hottest street cars were not made by Pontiac. Rajinikanth would not have driven Pontiacs, in other words.

But back to your question, a "must have" as far as a handgun here in the USA depends on who you talk to and the mood they are in at the time.

Honestly, the .357 is passe and obsolete...

I used to recommend that a new shooter get a .357 revolver, then you could use .38 special for less expensive, mild shooting and .357 for defense or when you wanted a loud bang and big kick.... but now, in the US, the Glock 19 is the beginner's pistol. 9mm ammo is nearly half the cost of .38 spec and much much more available (well, before mid-dec that was the case, all this might change with our latest political bullshit).

Nearly all handguns sold in the US are self-loading pistols, nearly all of which are 9mm, .40S&W or .45 ACP. The revolver market is for those who love classics, cowboy re-enactors, and those who want a really really big, loud bang....

There is an action revolver competition called "iCore" and NRA has a "distinguished revolver match" but the other 99% of the times a handgun is fired in competition, be it NRA bullseye, Olympic/ISSF, IDPA, IPSC, 3-gun, or CMP Leg Matches, it is a semi-auto pistol.

in the action shooting sports, I'd guess about 48% of shooters use a 1911, mostly in .45 but not all of them, 48% use a Glock mostly in 9mm but not all of them and the other 4% use something else, mostly Glock-like tupperware guns such as the XD or S&W MP. At our club's weekly shoot, with 50 shooters two evenings a week, we might see a revolver once a month.

for NRA bullseye, the .45 and centerfire stages are similarly almost 100% 1911 in .45 with the occasional .38 spec wadcutter pistol, either 1911 or S&W M52. (Glock trigger is worthless for precision shooting). Occasionally we see a .38 revolver come out for out international center-fire (like olympic sport pistol but with a .32 or .38).

At pudlic ranges in the US, there are self-loading (we say semi-auto) pistols on every bench, but you still see a few revolvers, maybe 10%... a third are cowboy style, a third are .44 mag or .22 LR and most of the rest are shooting .38 spec.

There once was a .357 Mag semi-auto pistol (Desert Eagle?) but they are very rare, as are single shots like the T/C contender.

.357 lever action rifles and accompanying 1873 SAA style cowboy revolver are quite common, but the cowboy action shooters will be shooting extremely mild .38 spec loads in them, I think that's cheating and its an anachronism, our cowboy era ended with the 19th century, the .357 came out in 1935 and the first lever actions for it in the 1980's.

There is also a caliber called .357 SIG, its a .40 bottle-necked down to .357, it might be ballistically identical to the .357 revolver cartridge but I don't think that is what you are asking about. Its not very common but they do make Glocks, M&P's and others in that cal.

All that being said, I sometimes carry my .357 revolver as a back up when I am hunting or hiking since its fairly powerful, fairly accurate and uses the right kind of bullets (soft/hollow point, legal for hunting), its got a good trigger and its stainless steel in case it rains.

If the revolver is the proper size and weight and especially with modern grips and if you hold it properly, a full powered .357 is not bad to shoot....

am I biased or what?

Poole

I should have mentioned earlier - I was asking about deafness when firing impromptu.Will there be damage if you have to suddenly use it for defense?

How superior really is the .357 mag when compared to the .45 ACP,if at all? They have similar recoil but the .45 ACP is a bigger, slower and a low pressure round.They say the .45 ACP expends it's energy earlier than the depth of " Deep " penetration ( some say 18 inches? Of man or ballistic gel? ) , but the round proved itself for about a century now so i don't know what or who to believe.

I do know the .357 is not mainstream anymore, what with 9mm and .380 etc being preferred now.

Slightly OT, but i thought the 70-73 trans ams were quite nice, a little showy but they had Pontiac's biggest engine.The Stage 1 was a fast car, especially the 70 model.As for the GTO, the early ones actually handled well for a muscle car!!

Legends like the charger died after the glory years.The mustang and camaro wheezed on to the horrible 80's and 90's.....producing a hundred odd horse for a 5 litre V8!! I should say, it's great that you speak car...

I am out of pocket right now, but search this site for the link to the FBI study testing of penetration and lethality. It may not have every answer for every situation,but it is a scientific comprehensive study that doesn't have the funding of some advertiser driven magazine article -- it's about providing law enforcement with the most effective weapon.

Your ears do not discriminate between noises caused by self defense and those caused by practice. Damage is caused to the inner ear by gunfire blast and the more the gunfire, the more the damage. My Dad fought in WW2. He had lots of hearing loss. It didn't matter if the shooting was because of recreational shooting or self defense.

Off topic, the 455 Pontiacs werer mostly slugs. One exception was the famous Firebird SD 455, which Pontiac showed to the automotive writers in 73, who all dutifully reported the wonders of that engine when everyone else's engines had become gutless smog hogs. But after the public read about these wonder engines, they went to the dealership and could not order them -- Pontiac only made about 160 of them and they only fell into the hands of writers and executives.

There are two clues to follow with these cars: how much did they weigh and what kind of flow could the heads support. At 28" of pressure differential, every CFM of head flow will equal about 2 HP in an eight cylinder engine. The top of the heap in head flow was the Chrysler 426 Hemi, the Ford 427 SOHC, and the Ford Boss 429. the next tier would be Big Block Chevies and 429-460 Fords, with splayed heads. The next big blocks in power potential were the 427 Ford FE and the 440 Chrysler Wedge RB. Big Pontiacs came somewhat after this, but their ultimate power production is also limited by cast rods, which can be avoided by using 421 SD rods or Ram Air V rods.

The second clue to look for is weight, and Firechickens of 70 and after may look swoopy, but they weigh in at over two tons! In short, they are too fat for best performance.

Firebirds, Camaros, and Novas from 68 and after share the same front suspension, which is far superior for handling that any Gm inermediate (Chevelle & Malibu, Tempest, GTO, & LeMans, F85 & Cutlass, Skylark & Gran Sport) and stretch intermediate (Grand Prix and Monte Carlo) from 64 into the early 80s, which ere all essentially the same cars. For stock car racing, their front suspension requires a lot of rework that the Camaro/Firebird does not, because the intermediate suspension is made for a smooth ride, not handling. The rear suspension of intermediates is a mess and requires a lot of rework.

My 65 GT0 weighed 3460 lbs on the local farm scale with 2/3 tank of gasoline and without me. By the early 70s, these intermediates had expanded to over two tons.

Remember that power ratings were changed from gross to net after 1971. They were also rated with more accessories. Also remember that Detroit played many games with muscle car power ratings for the sake of insurance rates. For instance, 302 Z28s and Boss 302s were both rated at 290 hp, and really produced between 350 and 375. 428 SCJ Fords we rated at 360 hp, a huge joke. There were many other examples of this. The old 5.0 L Mustangs can be made into fairly spectable street performers, actually.

The thing about GM is that most people could not buy their "big iron" back in the day. For instance, it is very rare to find L79 375 HP 396 Chevys or L88 427s, but the low performance versions of these motors were a dime a dozen. However, 390 GT and 428 CJ/SCJ Fords were far more common. But Chrysler made millions of high performance 383s and 375 HP 440s. I once built a 440 and the performance parts needed to make an impressive street performer were very easy to come by. They were very stout engines and cheap to build. I also had a 454 in a small box 77 Chevy truck that was the fastest ride out of Detroit for 77, which I mildly built. It was also quite stout and I blew off several smogger Corvettes with it, along with a number of other machines (including Firebirds, which were not in the same league). The 454 was also a very strong, reliable and long lasting motor.

I should have mentioned earlier - I was asking about deafness when firing impromptu.Will there be damage if you have to suddenly use it for defense?

Any firearm fired indoors has the possibility of causing hearing damage. Most firearms fired out doors will be loud enough to cause hearing damage.
The problem with any sound loud enough to cause hearing damage is that the damage is cumulative. You cannot "get used" to a sound loud enough to cause hearing damage. Every loud report will build on itself and continued exposure will eventually cause deafness.

There is a phenomenon called Auditory Exclusion where people don't remember hearing the sound of a gunshot when in a self defense situation. Some people have said that they remember hearing the tinkle of brass hitting the pavement after making the shot. There are times when I have been hunting and have no recollection of hearing the shot but I can remember the sound of the bolt cycling or the slide racking. Still, there is no evidence that the phenomenon protects your hearing or lessens the cumulative effects of a loud sound. I shoot every weekend and sometimes, in the summer, several times a week. I wear hearing protection at all times, indoors and outdoors and even with a .22 LR. It's just not worth the certain penalty of eventual hearing loss. Someday, I want to hear my grandchildren. Since I use hearing protection when I have to go into the plant where I work, I carry a set of Skull Screws with me all the time.

How superior really is the .357 mag when compared to the .45 ACP,if at all? They have similar recoil but the .45 ACP is a bigger, slower and a low pressure round.They say the .45 ACP expends it's energy earlier than the depth of " Deep " penetration ( some say 18 inches? Of man or ballistic gel? ) , but the round proved itself for about a century now so i don't know what or who to believe.

Superior for what? For self defense, both will do the job against bipedal perpetrators at self defense ranges but then so will many lesser calibers. For hunting on deer size game, both will do the job. However, and this is a big "However"; most people can't hit the broadside of a barn at over 20 some yards with a handgun. I'm not saying it can't be done, many people have done it but it requires lots of practice. If you can't place the shot in the vitals every time, don't hunt with a handgun or if it is too far, don't take the shot. I'd much rather use a long gun for hunting.... even squirrels. Obviously placement is key in any application of a firearm.

From a hunting standpoint, consider this:
At the muzzle, a 150 gr. factory .30-06 round will have 2997 ft. lbs of energy
At 100 yards, a 150 gr. factory .30-06 round will have 2467 ft. lbs of energy
At 300 yards, a 150 gr. factory .30-06 round will have 1633 ft. lbs of energy

At the muzzle, a 158 gr. .357 Mag factory round will have 428 ft. lbs of energy
At 100 yards, a 158 gr. .357 Mag factory round will have 362 ft. lbs of energy


As others have said, shooting a .357 Mag in a full size handgun is no big deal but in smaller handguns the recoil can get annoying. Firing a Scandium Smith snubby in .357 was one of the worst handgun experiences that I have had. Even though I love to shoot, one cylinder-full in that little gun was more than enough for me. Even the .50 AE in a Desert Eagle didn't sting my hands as bad as that. Mark's hammer analogy is very fitting.

Bill Poole wrote:There once was a .357 Mag semi-auto pistol (Desert Eagle?) but they are very rare, as are single shots like the T/C contender.

You're correct. The DE .357 are not seen much today but don't forget the Coonan .357 Mag auto. It's still in regular production. Of course, it's pretty much a custom pistol with beautiful fit and finish but a joy to fire. Even my 5' 2" daughter has no problem with them. In fact, it's one of her favorite handguns.





Bowman keep in mind that most of those 60's and 70's muscle cars handled like boats. They had incredible straight line acceleration but when it came to curves, they basically wallowed their way around them. It wasn't till the late 1980's when the average American production cars got decent suspensions but most of them lost those gas guzzling high horsepower engines as people were looking at econo-boxes for their daily drivers. Though, I do remember riding in a 5.0 liter Mustang and the acceleration was pretty spirited. It wasn't till the 90's and 2000's that the average production cars started combining power with handling and there were some pretty decent options available to the enthusiast. Keep in mind that I'm not talking about specialty cars like the Viper and the Corvette's. Come to think of it, many of the 80's and early 90's Corvettes had good handling and big engines but had the ride comfort of a hay wagon.

I hope this car discussion can be carried on via PM.

Back to topic, in the Indian scenario, won't a .357 be one of the more stout choices for self defense? I have no faith in the .22 or .32 for some reason.Yes, bullet placement is everything, but i would trust something bigger more.For instance, a .357 mag in the same place as a .32 or .22 will most certainly cause more damage don't you think? Not regarding follow up shots etc.

Which reminds me.A .22 or .32 can most likely be shot on target every 1-1.5 seconds by those of us who have limited practice.How quick do you reckon follow-ups are with a .357 mag double action revolver?

Also 1911 vs .357 mag revolver? Which would be preferable ( dunno what kind or revolvers there are here, hence in general.) for self defense and EDC?

BAH!! XL, you have hurt my feelings.I am Skyman not Bowman. Bowman is the fellow with the bow!!

Thanks.

It seems that I am not the only one confusing Skyman and Bowman. However, that is no excuse. My humble apologies to Skyman ... and Bowman.

Which reminds me.A .22 or .32 can most likely be shot on target every 1-1.5 seconds by those of us who have limited practice.How quick do you reckon follow-ups are with a .357 mag double action revolver?

Yes, practice has a lot to do with it. Without practice, the 1 - 1.5 second timing for shooting even a .22 LR pistol will have you all over the paper and maybe even off the paper (I'm talking about a 8.5 X 11.5 target at 7 yards).
Someone with Baljit's experience and proficiency level can empty a .22 auto in about two seconds. Sounds amazing but I've seen him do it. Not all of us can do that and be as accurate as he can, unfortunately. As the caliber goes up and recoil increases, a double tap gets slower but Baljit can double tap a 9mm, .40 S&W pistol or .45 ACP and make it sound like one shot and have his shots hit at the same place. I can do pretty well with my SIG 9mm but not as quickly with my .40 CZ as the reset is longer. With the .357, I would have to wait for the muzzle to recenter itself on the target so I would be a little slower. The trigger mechanisn has a lot to do with it. Obviously, I would be slower with a double action revolver than with the Coonan pistol (which handles the recoil very well). I'd be willing to bet that Baljit could get off a double tap with a Coonan auto in a second or under. He's bigger thatn me, his hands are bigger and he has ten times the practical shooting experience level that I have.

To achieve a fast follow up shot, your grip is very important. A cup and saucer grip will not let you recover as fast but with the proper grip, the pistol will recenter itself on the target naturally. This too takes a lot of practice. Revolvers are held differently and the difference between a single action revolver and a double action revolver will also skew the time.

Also 1911 vs .357 mag revolver? Which would be preferable ( dunno what kind or revolvers there are here, hence in general.) for self defense and EDC?

I'm speaking only for myself here. I can empty a 1911 faster than a .357 revolver and still be accurate. Not only that, the flat profile of the 1911 is easier to carry than a revolver, for me at least. Though for carry, I would prefer a commander size 1911 rather than a full size 1911. The 1911 is also faster to reload than a revolver. I'm no Jerry Miculek.
I like the triple safety of the SIG DA/SA system and I would prefer to carry a SIG P245 or one of the compact P220 models rather than a 1911 but I don't own one ....yet. I've also trained with that system and it would come more naturally to me than the 1911's SA with safety. In real life though, I carry a DA/SA 9mm (IWB) or a CZP-06 .40 S&W (OWB). I'm confident that with either of those two calibers, with the proper ammo, the job will get done.

Wah Baljit Sahab! What skill you have! I wonder how much practice it took....? Is there anyway to become proficient with the kind of quota we have here? Fifty measly rounds.

Besides...is the tokarev an option besides the .357 mag? The flash and kick aside, it seems to be a reliably powerful .30cal.

XL, i dont know how i miss this but anyway here is some ans. for skymen.

Skyman wrote:Wah Baljit Sahab! What skill you have! I wonder how much practice it took....? Is there anyway to become proficient with the kind of quota we have here? Fifty measly rounds.

If you are talking about my practice then let me tell you ( maybe someone not going to believe this but this is true )i fire around 12000 to 15000 round in a year since1998.

I have a car accident back in Dec.2007, it give me a back problum since then i am not doing practice that hard but i still have the same speed and around 8000 to 10000 round in years.

If we are talking about the speed here then i like to shere something with you , i am big fan of 1911s and i don't think i can shoot any other gun that fast and accurate as i can 1911.I do not care if it's 9MM,40S&W,38Super,.45ACP or even .22LR.

I do have a timer and I time my self with my .38Super,i have a split between in each shoot is .15Sec.It mean i can fire six rounds just under a Sec.
Here ia picture of my .38 Super.

Last wekk i was in the range again with my Para 1911 in .40S&W and i time my self again,With this gun i have a split between each round are .25Sec.it mean i can shoot four round in a Sec.

Now let's go back to mane topick about .357Mag. XL i did not try these Coonan .357Mag. yet but i am sure i can shoot this with the same speed.Looks like very nice gun to me in the picture.

Guy's i am not try to hijack this topick, only i am giving the answers to skyman

Baljit

Baljit,

I knew you are good.Just did not know how good. Now I do!


Best-
Vikram

i have a split between in each shoot is .15Sec

That is fast! Think about it! 0.15 of a second between shots!

Baljit, great looking STI (?), a nice .38Super is on my list of "guns I gotta get sometime".

Re; .357 magnum, I would put it at maximum for self defense and minimum for hunting. It's not going to break your wrist. It's not going to render you deaf with 4 or 5 shots (though your ears would ring for a few days. It's going to have more penetration than .45ACP and depending on the type of bullet, more than likely a wider wound track.