Indians For Guns

I saw an old post here a few minutes ago about "The most Lethal civilian Arms in India".
A member named something like "crix.." said there that 30 Cal chinese Pistols and it's ammunition are cheap and easily available in India.
I also saw a post which said that this Pistol is a copy of the Tokarev-TT 30
Is it true?Is it really available in India?
I saw a few pictures of the TT-30(Original) and a few variations made by Yugoslavia(Former) and Pakistan.All of them looked quite impressive.Atleast much more than IOF Ashani Pistol.
Does anyone know where it is available?

This is the link to that post.The reply I am talking about is the 1st or the 2nd reply.
http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=131

8 views and not one has the answer????

Chinese M-20 pistols are very popular in north india (punjab haryana) and you should probably inquire there..

Sourojit wrote:8 views and not one has the answer????

Patience is not your forte,is it?

There is no specific shop that stocks these, you will simply have to ask various arms dealers to see if they have one available with them. I'd suggest starting by calling/ visiting arms dealers closest to your place of residence. For arms dealer contact information you can refer to the yellow pages on this site as well as your city's yellow pages.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

They were never legally imported into the country.The ones floating around in the market are either ones that were allotted to army men as NSP firearm from pistols seized in military operations.These were then sold by them to dealers/arms licensees.Others are those, that were allotted to VIP's from govt. stocks of pistols seized from criminals.These then were sold in the open market.

There are some floating around. Specifically these are Chinese Type - 54 with Norinco markings and good examples can be had for about 7-7.5 Lacs in Delhi market.

Not my type of weapon though considering it is a Chinese knock off of a Russian design which in turn is an adaptation of M1911. I believe these also do not have a safety catch on them and if you find an example with one then it has probably been added later on as this is a requirement in some countries.

On the plus side ammo is cheap and plentiful and the round has a good muzzle velocity of 1400 - 1500 fps. So it shoots very flat for a handgun (the load is light, about 80 grains) and these pistols have good accuracy. Trigger feel is also somewhat close to a M1911 but disassembly is much simpler than M1911 and you only need to release a pin on the side to release the slide.

winnie_the_pooh wrote:They were never legally imported into the country.The ones floating around in the market are either ones that were allotted to army men as NSP firearm from pistols seized in military operations.These were then sold by them to dealers/arms licensees.Others are those, that were allotted to VIP's from govt. stocks of pistols seized from criminals.These then were sold in the open market.

+10,Winne is giving to you and to all the other 30 Chinese Fans the right information,the licensing authorities can create a lot of hurdles for people in possession of these weapons and the buyer & seller can be in lot of trouble,they are still being released on civil licenses from various police armories on the condition that they will be deposited back on the demise of the license holder,the rest for sale are in the Grey Area and when the Grey area turns in Sarkari Hospitality is just a question of time.Best Amit
PS;they are some with 30 Cal pistols Air Force guys who went to USSR for training,pre 1984 [As Winchester has pre64 we in India should refer to the golden period as pre-84] , but they were all Tokrevs and they are really not selling.

the licensing authorities can create a lot of hurdles for people in possession of these weapons and the buyer & seller can be in lot of trouble,they are still being released on civil licenses from various police armories on the condition that they will be deposited back on the demise of the license holder,the rest for sale are in the Grey Area and when the Grey area turns in Sarkari Hospitality is just a question of time.

Administrative orders cannot override the provisions of law. Thus SAO 4/S/2006 of Army has reportedly allowed sale of NSP weapons as per provisions of Arms Act 1959(for details may read the following post http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 49#p159471). I don't think the buyer or seller are criminally liable for selling/purchasing the gun by following the relevant provisions of Arms Act 1959. Also Section 40 of Arms Act 1959 protects anything done under the act in good faith.

If you disagree, then can you please elaborate the provisions of law that make the buyer and seller criminally liable for sale/purchase done by following the due process of law under Arms Act 1959?

Hi gbm,as i said this is the Grey Area,in Haryana and a few other states the sale permissions of 30 China are not being done,as winnie has mentioned the above mentioned pistols are issued only to serving personal of the fauj,someone thought that it is a good idea to make money out of it.,i.e get a 30 Pistol from Jabalpur for Rs 850/1500,and put it in the civil market for sale for a cpl of lacs,{ Robbie is not the only one who knows how to make a fast buck },there were whole lot of case registered in Rajasthan, after the intervension of the H,nable Supreme Court on sale of NSP weapons and quite a lot of faujis are in trouble,NSP weapons are given to faujis as a thanks for the service,its not a money making exercise,though everything here comes to that
PS; In our country administrative orders override everything. Plz refer to Ashok Khemkas Transfer order,TOI Dt 17.10.12, NDTV,and whole other T.V Channels dt 16.10.from 8-10.30 pm,{thats all i could watch}

From what I understand,while the sale of arms by serving/retired army officers is not illegal ,as long as there is no condition imposed prohibiting their sale and provided it is done in accordance with the provisions of the Act/Rules,the issue here is different. There are govt. directions on sale of goods allotted to govt. officials at a throwaway price. Something to the extent that they are required to deposit the profit with the govt. I may be wrong.

in Haryana and a few other states the sale permissions of 30 China are not being done

I don't think one has to seek "permission" from licensing authority. Probably you are referring to 45 day notice period before sale. If the licensing authorities are objecting during the 45 day notice period, then that matter can be taken care legally by the sellers. Most probably the matter appears to be about the ignorance of law than any violation of law. If you read this post http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 49#p159471 you will find that SAO 1/S/1996 has been superseded by SAO 4/S/2006. It has been mentioned that the SAO 4/S/2006 says no disciplinary action can be initiated against any army personnel who had purchased or sold the NSP or other kind of weapons in compliance with the Rules, Regulations provided under the Arms Act 1959.

The point I am trying to convey is that if the sale and purchase is done by following the relevant provisions of Arms Act 1959 and its Rules, there is nothing much to worry since it does not create a criminal liability under the Arms Act 1959.

Hi folks ,

Correct me if I am wrong , but the Type 54 does fire a 7.62 x 25 mm round . Which is much more lethal than a 9x19 mm . If this is correct then , I don't think , we civilians have a good chance of legally owning the Type 54 or it's ammo .


FN-Five-Seven

FN-Five-Seven wrote:Hi folks ,

Correct me if I am wrong , but the Type 54 does fire a 7.62 x 25 mm round . Which is much more lethal than a 9x19 mm . If this is correct then , I don't think , we civilians have a good chance of legally owning the Type 54 or it's ammo .


FN-Five-Seven

You would do very well to read the rules on PB and NPB. It has nothing to do with lethality. One can debate the effectiveness of the 7.62X25 Vs the 9X19 NATO. The 7.62x25 is LEGAL.


Best-
Vikram

FN-Five-Seven wrote:Hi folks ,

Correct me if I am wrong , but the Type 54 does fire a 7.62 x 25 mm round . Which is much more lethal than a 9x19 mm . If this is correct then , I don't think , we civilians have a good chance of legally owning the Type 54 or it's ammo .


FN-Five-Seven

7.62x25mm has about the same energy as the 9x19mm. The 7.62x25 fires a lighter, smaller bullet at a higher velocity, and will penetrate more deeply. It will also shoot flatter over long range. The 9x19mm retains energy better at long distance and creates a larger wound channel.

All of this means that, under certain circumstances, one round would have the edge over the other, but which one is better would depend on the situation.

From a theoretical point of view, the much shorter 9x19mm can be used in a pistol with a shorter action, making it more compact.

In the Indian context, the 7.62x25 may well be one of the more powerful pistols for which one can reasonably expect to find ammunition.

There are two pistols available that are chambered for the 7.62x25mm: The first is the Tokarev TT33 and its derivatives, which were made in a number of countries to which the Soviet Union exported the tooling and technology, including Poland and China. The Polish TT33s I've seen are very nicely made. The Soviet ones can vary in finish. The Chinese ones are somewhat to pretty rough. However, all are sturdily made and function well. There is no way to carry one of these safely with a round in the chamber. Some Chinese models have a safety, but I don't think the safety is very safe, as it was added into the design. Certainly the half-cock notch on the hammer IS NOT SAFE! This limits the usefulness of the TT33 design as a self-defense "carry" pistol.

(For the record, I own a Norinco 213, which is the Chinese version of the TT33 chambered in 9x19mm.)

The other pistol is the Czech CZ-52. It is somewhat lighter than the TT33, and very nicely made. It can be carried with a round in the chamber safely. However, its design is very intricate and can give trouble. If one is in good condition and working order, it is a better choice for self defense.

(for the record, I own a CZ 52 chambered in 7.62x25mm.)