Indians For Guns

Hi Guys,

After frequenting a gun range and renting guns all the time, I felt it would be a better idea to buy a gun which I feel comfortable with, than renting guns which have been used and abused by every tom, dick and harry. Of all the guns that I rented so far, I really liked the Sig Sauer P226 9mm and a lot of people I know have the same feeling about it. Its grip was a little larger than I would have liked but thats the gun I would love to own.

As detailed by other experienced member in their other posts, the P226 comes in different variants. I am looking at the Dark Elite / Enhanced Elite in .40 S&W or .357 Sig or the P226 X5 Tactical in .40 S&W ( I havent had a chance to try an X5 yet).

I wanted to know if anyone here has an opinion or has had experience with these variants? Which one of the 3 would you choose? And which caliber (.40 or .357) would be the preferable one? My intent is to use this gun solely for target practice and I haven't given a second thought about its other uses.

Also, eventually I may plan to take it to India on a TR (hence no 9mms) and given that the calibers I selected are a rarity in India, I plan to buy a .22LR conversion kit for it. Which brings me to my other question, If I plan to bring the gun on TR, should I buy the conversion kit with the gun or can I buy it separately later (and own it for 1 year before bringing it with the gun)?

Any advice from all the experienced members here would be greatly appreciated
Thanks

The only 226 that I have fired is the standard version in .40 with a .357 SIG barrel. The other versions are mostly cosmetic treatments to the same gun. The X5's are nice but they are just SIG custom shop versions of the same gun. It's fine in .40 and the .357 SIG out of it is easily manageable. The .357 SIG does have some snort to it though. If bringing back a .22 kit for the gun, make sure you have it fully functional before you come back to India. There have been complaints about the kit.

If bringing it back on TR, you will have serious problems getting ammo for it. .40 is hard enough to find in India but .357 SIG ammo will be like trying to find a unicorn.

I have used the 9 mm version of p226 ..that was the first pistol i fired ..smooth like cream ..minimum recoil . It dint make me feel alien as a first time shooter. I cherish those days and the feel ! Go for it ..i am in love with it .

Thanks for the quick reply XL, I was really looking forward to your reply after reading your experiences with the P226.

I was also inclined towards the .40. I am not sure about the TR yet, but just in case I do go for it, I wanted to get a caliber which I might have a chance of finding rather than chasing unicorns . I guess the .22 kit would be the only thing that I will get to shoot in India for most of the time.

As for the X5, the Tactical version is the lowest priced at $1.5k. I was considering it mainly because of the price and I felt that its additional weight (35.5 oz vs 34 oz) and increased barrel length (5in vs 4.4in) might help absorb some recoil and increase accuracy.

I am still a few weeks away from considering a purchase. Will be attending a hunters education session to get a hunters permit and then probably get a CCW, just to have all the paperwork to back me up since im on a non immigrant visa.

Thanks for your vote too kalashnikovcult!

Finally got my hunting license after a 2 day hunting education session. I guess I meet all the federal requirements to buy a handgun now. The hunting sessions were really interesting and I would never have believed how much effort goes into planning a hunt if I had not attended these sessions and met avid hunters.

As I mentioned earlier, I am still looking at a Sig P226 dark.But a friend of mine showed me a Walther P99 and its size got me thinking again. Does anyone here have any experience with a P99 and would you recommend it over a P226?

Another pistol to consider is the CZ75B. The low bore axis of the CZ design helps mitigate recoil. It is also an all steel pistol with a proven track record.

The CZ .22 LR kit is one of the best on the market. All steel and very reliable. It will eat all most any .22 LR ammo which is a consideration if you plan on using KOF ammo. The are also known to be very accurate.

The CZ75B in .40 S&W: http://czcustom.com/CZ-75B-PolyCoat-40SandW.aspx
The Kadet kit (.22 lr): http://czcustom.com/CZ-75-Kadet-Kit-PolyCoat-22.aspx

You don't mention what state you are in. Even with a hunting licence, as a non-resident, you might not be able to purchase a handgun without additional law enforcement permission to purchase (Sheriff or Police Chief).

Thanks for the info on the CZ XL, any opinion on how the CZ 75 recoil compare with the Sig P226? I am still looking at all options, but still leaning towards the Sig. The reliable .22 kit does make the CZ look more desirable.

I should have mentioned it earlier, I'm in Ohio. Also, I have been here for over a year, so I think that makes me a Resident Alien and not a non resident.

You are only a Resident Alien if you have a Green Card.
On the question of legality, you can fulfill State residency requirements and be considered a resident of that state. That will entitle you to buy a hunting licence, get a drivers licence from that state, etc. However certain Federal Gun Laws trump State law.
So as a holder of a Foreign Passport; regardless of how long you have been in the USA, on whatever type VIsa, if you do not have a card that says "Permanent Resident" on it, you are subject to different gun laws than a citizen or Permanent Resident. If you have what is colloquially called a "Green Card", then you are a Resident Alien and have the same gun-purchasing rights as a citizen. So if you are not a Citizen or a Permanent Resident of the USA, you are considered a Non-resident Alien. As a Non-resident Alien, with a hunting license, you can purchase a long gun like a rifle or a shot gun.
According to the Brady act:
The following list of prohibited persons[5] are ineligible to own firearms under the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act
Non-US citizens, unless permanently immigrating into the U.S. or in possession of a hunting license legally issued in the U.S.

In most states to purchase a Pistol or a gun classified as an "Assault Weapon", you are dependent on state laws. Reading the Ohio Attorney Generals pamphlet on the subject, he only mentions being a legal resident of the state as entitlement for a concealed carry licence. So I cannot tell you what the exact wording of the State law is. Needless to say, you must purchase a hunting licence and have it with you. Whether it must be valid at all times, I can't tell you. If you are a non-resident I would assume that, as long as you own the gun, you would have to purchase one every year even if you do not hunt.

I'm not trying to put obstacles in your way, I am just trying to inform you. I am not a lawyer so don't take my advice at face value. Before you purchase a handgun, consult a lawyer who deals in gun laws or someone who teaches (certifies) Concealed Carry classes to Ohio residents.

How do you compare the CZ vs the SIG in .40 S&W? It depends on how big your hands are and how the gun fits your hand personally. They are both excellent guns and I personally feel that neither recoil is excessive. That doesn't tell you much and some people might not like one or the other but wll have to make up your own mind. You must try firing them personally with comparable ammunition. They are both generally reliable and accurate. Some would say that the SIG has a better trigger out of the box but the CZ will wear in with a few hundred rounds. My CZ clone (which has an almost identical arrangement to the CZ trigger) has a trigger that is like butter and my P225 trigger is a little more deliberate but in a match situation, both will go off when I want them to and I won't remember how crisp or how smooth the trigger pull was.

Thank you again for the detailed perspective that you gave XL. I really appreciate it and a different perspective is always welcome as most of the time we tend to look at only one view which is beneficial to us .

I was looking at the IRS rules http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc851.html which determine the residency status and was using the "substantial presence test" to say that I would fall under resident alien category.

I also looked through the ATF publications and came across these documents which state that it is permissible for nonimmigrant aliens to possess firearms as long as they have a valid hunting license:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/downloa ... 5300-4.pdf
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-imm ... aliens.pdf

Also the NICS background check form (Form 4473) has a section to capture nonimmigrant details to determine eligibility

As you said, there might be state laws which put a dampener on my plans, but searching for them, I have not come across any so far. I will definitely take your advice on consulting someone before buying a gun. I am not sure how expensive an attorney would turn out to be ....but I can definitely check with a certified CCW instructor or the local sheriff's office. I would much rather research and find out I cant own one than buy one and find out that I shouldn't have bought one.

As for the CZ vs Sig, I will try to get my hands on a CZ and try it out. The local ranges don't have one I could rent, but they should have models on display which I can hold and get a feel. The Sig felt comfortable to hold, but the grip felt slightly big. I think the enhanced elite with the reduced reach grip would take care of that. The trigger pull on the SIg was amazing, even for a rental gun. Dry fired a couple of the display models and the SRT trigger does provide for a really short reset. But looking at the prices of the 2, the CZ does make an economical sense, especially when you have to pay a 150% duty to bring it back on TR. I could very well use the rest of the cash on a boatload of other stuff .

Other SIG's to look at are the 229 which would be a more compact version of the 226. The SIG .22 LR kit will fit the P220, P226 and the P229. A SIG P228 (discontinued) is also a very good handgun that is excellent for concealing. The difference between the P228 and P229 is that the P229 has a stainless steel slide and the P228 as a carbon steel slide. Don't let that stop you if you find a P228 at a good price. The P228, many claim has better balance and handling than the P229. The P228 used to be one of the standard sidearms of the British SAS. There was no deficiency in the carbon steel slides. It is mainly cost and a change in manufacturing techniques that have caused SIG to stop making carbon steel folded slides.

SIG makes excellent handguns. Many SIG collectors swear by the triple serial numbered (barrel, slide and frame) made in Germany handguns. SIG's purchased in the US today are usually made in the US and there have been some complaints about the quality control. However, I personally have never had any issues with US made SIG's.

As far as CZ's go, if you purchase a CZ from the CZ custom shop (which I linked to in the previous post), they can perform many different operations like trigger jobs or a swap to a competition hammer before delivery. It is run by Angus Hobdell, a many time world champ and team CZ member. CZ, while not wildly popular in the US, are a world renowned brand and their products are used by the governments of many countries. The reputation of their Kadet pistol is stellar. The Kadet pistol is just their conversion kit on a standard CZ75B frame. Since the .22LR kit is important, one must definitely take a brand into consideration that offers a kit for their full size pistols.

Please do not hesitate to ask about any other brands. If I have any experience with them, I would be glad to offer you my opinion.