Indians For Guns

The day before yesterday, August 5th, was Labor Day. It is traditionally the last big holiday of the summer. My company allowed everyone a four day weekend. I had a great, lazy, fun filled weekend. On Friday, I took my wife out for a drive to see something that she had wanted to see (http://www.westbendgrotto.com/). On Saturday, I spent the day at my Model Railroad Club with my friends. On Sunday, I went into town to pick up some stuff for my wife and I stopped in to one of my local sporting goods stores. I was walking around, looking at the pistol display cases and I saw something I had never seen before. There, by the Browning Buck Mark’s, the Beretta NEOS’s and the Ruger MkIII’s was SIG’s new offering for the .22 enthusiast; the Sig Sauer 1911-22. Well, I broke down and splurged, walking out of the store with one. I did not need this but I sure wanted it. She shouldn’t have sent me shopping on my own, Ha. On Monday, I picked up my daughter, called up a friend and we went to the range so we could shoot it. He brought a bunch of handguns and I brought my Chronograph along and we put holes in paper for about five hours. I also shot my Chronograph but that is another story! Still, I had a great weekend!



History of the 1911:
This year (2011) is the hundredth anniversary of the acceptance by the US Army of John Browning’s famous single-action, semi-automatic, .45 Caliber handgun. Designated the model M1911, by the Army, it served through two world wars and a number of other conflicts as the standard sidearm of the US Army. While the pistol, chambered in .45 ACP, provided yeoman service for generations of US soldiers, it was finally discontinued in 1985. About 2.7 million 1911 pistols were purchased by the US Armed forces during the pistol’s service life.
Many firearms manufacturers have issued commemorative Model 1911 pistols this year. A number of manufacturers have also introduced replica 1911’s in the .22 LR caliber this year.
Some of them are:
Colt (made by Umarex),
GSG (introduced in 2010),
SIG (made by GSG),
Chiappa (introduced in 2010),
Browning (80% of full size)
Kimber “Rimfire Target” A-22
Rock Island Armory M1911-A1 XT22
There are also a number of .22 conversion kits that can be used on a standard 1911 frame.

The Gun
The handgun is properly called the “SIG SAUER 1911-22”. It is a replica of a full size 1911 chambered in .22 Long Rifle. As far as I can tell it is made by GSG Sports of Germany for SIG. However, the warranty is serviced by SIG itself. From what I have read, the dimensions faithfully copy the actual 1911 and actual 1911 parts can be interchanged in some cases. On the other hand they have added a magazine safety , a drop safety and firing pin safety. Replacing the mainspring housing with a standard 1911 mainspring housing is supposed to get rid of the magazine safety.





Keep in mind that this is a blowback operated firearm and the barrel does not have the typical Browning swinging link. For all practical purposes, the barrel is, in fact, fixed rigidly to the frame with the slide stop, a pin and a screw. It does not tilt as the slide retracts. The slide is Aluminium and pretty lightweight as the .22LR cartridge doesn’t exert much force and would have issues with a heavy slide.


The slide has cutouts for front and rear sights. The sights are black plastic, with reddish yellow dots and are held in place with a set-screw. The gun comes supplied with three front sights of different heights. I found that the middle set of sights shot at point of aim, for me. The sights are black plastic with reddish-orange dots. They do seem rather flimsy but they did not move after firing several hundred rounds. From what I have read, the dovetails are cut to accept Novak sights so that is always an option.
One single solitary 10 round magazine is supplied with the gun and that is one of my complaints. At $40, additional magazines are not cheap. The grips are very well done. They are Rosewood and have a stippled surface with “SIG SAUER” in raised letters on them. I really like these grips. Of course, you can always use any of the aftermarket 1911 grips.




Specifications:
Item Number 1911-22-B
Caliber .22LR
Action Type SAO
Trigger Pull SA 4.2 lbs - 5.6 lbs
Overall Length 8.5 in
Overall Height 5.5 in
Overall Width 1.4 in
Barrel Length 5.0 in
Sight Radius 5.4 in
Weight w/Mag 34.0 oz
Mag Capacity 10 Rounds
Sights Contrast sights
Grips Custom Shop Wood Grips
Frame Finish PTFE
Slide Finish PTFE
Accessory Rail No
Options Skeletonized hammer and trigger

Impressions:
This is a fun little gun to shoot and plink with. The Grips feel great and the stippling allows an excellent grip! The action of the slide is smooth and it is easy to cock. The slide is held back after the last round and the slide can be released with the slide release or by pulling it back. Recoil is typical .22, maybe a little more than the heavier Buckmark or the Ruger MK series but that’s it. Magazines insert and eject easily and drop free when ejected. Ejection is positive. I had no malfunctions that could be traced to the gun. Once when my thumb contacted the recoiling slide, it ejected the spend casing but failed to chamber a new round. Another time, the cartridge failed to fire. Re-cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger again caused ignition this time. I used Winchester Wildcat’s, Remington Thunderbolts, CCI Stingers, CCI Mini-Mags, Federal Lightnings, Federal Bulk (550 round milk cartons) and Winchester Super X .22 LR ammo in my testing.

Takedown Instructions: I will post takedown instructions and photos a little later.
Range Report: I will post a Range report in the future with photos of targets.

xl, did you buy this toy? , i have a GSG1911 in .22lr it's a good toy for plinking , my toy have a same setup like this have but i don the triger job it is now only 2lb pull and i change the rear site, you can see the picture in hand gun topic. enjoy

Baljit

Baljit,
I must have missed your post. I just looked it up.
Yeah, it is the same thing that you have, just branded differently and with wood grips. This is the 'B' version. Apparently they made some changes to the recoil spring guide rod.
Here is Baljit's post if you want to see his pistol.

I tried some 'artsy' photos.

Here it is laying on a WW2 USAAF B3 bomber jacket.


Maybe he used one too?


As someone said, they have too much writing on the side. I wish they wouldn't do that, if I want to look at a billboard, I can always go for a ride on the highway.

That pistol looks like a whale of a lot of fun, xl. Just out of curiosity, did you run the chronograph when shooting it? I wonder how fast a .22 would come out of that 5" barrel! There is nothing (to me) quite like shooting a 1911, and being able to have that ergonomic wonder in a .22 package would be very nice, indeed. Nice pictures, thanks for sharing them!

About West Bend, I cannot ever remember having been there. We always took US 30 and only once do I remember getting off of the highway to see the Amana Colonies.

Congrats XL I was about to mention baljits gun but he piped in..thats the best way to spend labor day weekend..I tried unsuccessfully but did visit Cabelas in CT prior to long weekend even stocked up on 12 gauge and 22 LR Elley ammo after 5 hours drive..

Best

Congratulations XL, on your 'impulse purchase' - great looking hand gun! Love the rich, red wood grips - way to go.

I am looking forward to viewing Baljit's piece this weekend in Kelowna.

Nice book you have there too; I must catch up on John Master's works, I have neglected his exciting novels so far. I loved the movie Bhowani Junction. Khushwant Singh aptly commented that although Kipling understood India, John Masters understood Indians.

Thanks ngrewal. Its too bad you were not able to visit Cabelas over the long weekend, They had a number of sales specially for labor Day. Well at least you were able to visit there prior to that. I'm always in a good mood after i visit that Sportsmans's Mecca.

Timmy,
I did try the pistol through the Chrono. Some interesting results.
My friend has a Beretta Bobcat and wanted to see how much he would lose with the short barrel.

With the Bobcat, shooting 36 gr. Mini Mags, we averaged 866 fps. Approx 61 ft. lbs.
With the SIG 1911-22, shooting 36 gr Mini Mags, we averaged 1074 fps. Approx 97 ft. lbs.
With the Bobcat, shooting 32 gr. CCI Stingers, we averaged 967.6 fps, Approx 68 ft. lbs.
WIth the SIG 1911-22, shooting 32 gr. CCI stingers, we averaged 1294.5 fps, approx 124 ft. lbs
As you can see, a significant gain with the extra 2.5 inches of barrel.
Unfortunately, I actually shot my Chrono, not just through it! When I hit it, I shot it with a .40 S&W. I hit one of the Aluminum skyscreen supports and it took us quite a while to find it. Luckily, apart from a bent rod, everything else still works. I felt like a total idiot, .... one moments inattention and bam.

Kalyan sahib,
You will love it. it was a lot of fun shooting that pistol.
I hope you will have a lot of photos to show us.

xl_target, nice pistol and an interesting report. Eagerly waiting to see how it groups at different ranges with various ammo, I guess the groups should also tighten up after the initial break in?

OT, but your mention of the West Bend Grotto really took me back in time, all the way back to 1983... at the time we were visiting some family friends in Webster City (an hour or two north of Des Moines) and had gone to West Bend for a picnic. Had forgotten all about it, till I clicked on the link! Thank you for refreshing some very pleasant memories

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Xl_target, this seems to be a very well made and interesting weapon as far as construction and the fixed barrel in concerned. I must say technology has come a long way since the original Colt Ace that needed to be cleaned after every 50 shots to keep the typical recoil system going. Just wanted to know, did you ever use the Sig Mosquito ? Never heard any discussion on this particular .22

Enjoy your new toy.

TC

Abhijit,
I will post some photos of the targets as soon as I get a chance. I will endeavor to take myself out of the equation by resting the gun when I fire for groups this weekend.
I'm glad I manged to jog some old memories.

The Colt Ace had a Steel slide and a floating chamber was needed to amplify the recoil to operate the heavy slide. As you say, TC, it needed frequent cleaning.
The modern crop of .22 LR 1911 look-alikes use a light slide so (theoretically) it should keep working till it gets so dirty that the crud will physically impede the movement of the slide or a cartridge will not enter the chamber. I have shot a Mosquito and my impression was favorable but there are so many horror stories about the Mosquito (on the Internet) that I decided not to purchase one.

Disassembly
1. Remove Magazine and check that the chamber is empty.
2. Move the slide back till the takedown slot lines up with the end of the take down lever


3. Pull the takedown lever out.
4. Push out the "barrel fixing pin" from the right hand side of the gun and set it aside


5. Using the supplied Allen wrench, unscrew and remove the screw (see image in first post)


6. Moving the slide assembly forward, slide it off the frame.
7. Push in the recoil spring plug and rotate the barrel bushing 90 degrees clockwise, while preventing the recoil spring plug from flying out. This will release the recoil spring plug and the recoil spring can now be removed from the slide.


8. Then rotate the barrel bushing counter clockwise, while pulling, till it comes out of the slide. This will allow you to remove the barrel assembly.
Here you can see the three holes in the barrel assembly that allow it to be fixed rigidly to the frame when assembled.


That's all that one needs to do for disassembly.

I also noticed for the first time, that this pistol is quite fresh from the factory


I forgot to add that the the barrel is threaded. Removing the thread protector on the end of the barrel will allow you to attach a supressor or a compensator.

Photo from here

As promised, here is the range report.

A word about the Targets: I downloaded them and printed them from http://www.Targetz.com
The black circle in the center is one inch in diameter. All shooting was done with the sights at the bottom edge of the black circle (six-o-clock hold).

Range Report:

I shot the targets from 25 yard by resting the butt of the pistol on a bag. Not the best way to do it as there is still plent of room for the gun to move as the trigger is being pulled. I also shot the same targets at 21 ft, offhand, with a two handed hold in a semi weaver position. What I am trying to say is that someone else might get better results with any of the listed ammo as I could not effectively take myself out of the equation.

About the gun: I now have about 600 rounds through the gun and the trigger has mellowed a bit but its not quite there yet. Baljit had the right idea about getting a trigger job. It's not that bad as I've pressed worse triggers. However, On the other hand, I've used 1911's that are as smooth as ball-bearings on glass.
The gun came from the factory with the tallest sight installed (of the three supplied). It was shooting very low. I swapped it out for the medium height sight. That brought the point of impact closer to the point of aim (at 21 ft). However today at the range, I forgot to bring the little allen wrench that allows sight adjustment and could not bring the point of impact to the center of the target. All ammo except the Winchester T22 cycled, fired and ejected properly.

I will try to post targets using the same ammo side by side. The gun seems to like ammo that has a higher muzzle velocity. That could be a function of the twist rate and/or bullet weight. However, there were a couple of surprises.




CCI Stingers didn't do too badly in this gun but they are not cheap. They are almost twice the price of Mini Mags.
Bullet weight: 32 grains (hollow point)


Baljit was right again. This pistol really, really likes CCI Mini Mags. That is 10 rounds fired at the 21 ft. target. I can only assume that some of the bullets went in the same hole as the previous one. I called the two fliers on the 21 ft target. That was me and not the gun.
Bullet weight: 36 grains (hollow point)


Not too impressed here. This is a 40 grain (solid) bullet and more expensive than the bulk packs.


This 36 grain hollow point wasn't too bad and will do for general plinking. At least it is one of the cheapest buys out there.


This was a pleasant surprise. I wasn't looking forward to buying the more expensive Mini Mags exclusively. However, I prefer the copper washed bullets to the lubed lead on this ammo.
Bullet weight: 40 grains (solid)


This supposedly "standard velocity" cartridge was a disappointment. A lot of the time, the spent cartridge would not eject and most of the time when it did eject, it would not cycle the slide far enough to load a fresh cartridge. I was kind of bummed out as I have quite a bit of this ammo and it doesn't do that well in my 10/22 either. It was the only thing available at my local store during the great ammo crunch after the last election.
Bullet weight: 40 grains (X22LR) (solid)


None of the Winchester ammo that I used in this handgun did well. I also shot some Winchester Wildcat which has a 40 grain sollid bullet (WW22LR) but didn't bother to post the results.
bullet weight: 37 grains (X22LRH)

Conclusions:
I have a little adjustment to do with the front sight but the CCI Mini Mags are the clear winner here. I will be able to use Remington Thunderbolts and Federal bulk packs for general plinking which is a good thing as they are cheaper by far than CCI's high velocity offerings. After 600 rounds, the gun still doesn't rattle when shaken. All parts fit tight, including the magazine.

I will try to keep the forum appraised if I have any issues with the gun as I get more rounds through it. Maybe Baljit can chime in with his experience of the gun.

I can't wait for the next bowling pin shoot.

Hi XL, I am writing on behalf of Baljit, with whom I have been spending a couple of pleasant, edifying days....see spirited picture I really appreciate your effort for the range report...kudos! I am so pleased that I have someone who backs up my extensive, research experience of the CCI Mini Mag as a more accurate ammo for this particular weapon. Happy shooting !

It is a bit OT but - this is Kalyan again now XL: we are heading for the range on Mon, for half a day (Self, Baljit, and his son Sonny) we will be forwarding a hopefully, titillating, report with many pictures....

Kalyan Sahib and Baljit,
Its great to see that you are enjoying your visit together. Please send us lots of photos of your visit.

Since Baljit has had this handgun longer, any of his observations or comments would be welcome.
Kalyan, your impressions on using it for the first time would certainly be welcome too.
Post your targets and your photos, guys.

xl_target, was your slide/ spring/ spring guide well lubed while shooting? It really helps, especially when the gun is new... Have seen .22 pistols going from very picky (not accuracy but reliability) to a stage where they will digest most ammo. The off-hand mini mag group is very nice indeed!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Abhijit,
The first time that I took it out to the range, I just took it out of the box, cleaned the barrel and lightly greased the slide rails. After I got home I cleaned it thoroughly and greased the rails and the spring/guide rod assembly. I also lightly greased the barrel and the barrel bushing.
Yesterday when I went out, it was a hot day, over 85 degrees and the viscosity of the grease should have posed no problems. I use Superlube (which has a very wide temperature rating and is safe-chemically very inert) on the sliding parts of all my autos and CLP on any rotating parts. It is quite possible that an excess of grease may have contributed to the unsuitability of the standard velocity ammunition but I also wonder about the "cal. . 22LR HV" stamped on the slide. I wonder if it is possible that the spring is calibrated to work with high velocity .22 LR ammo to the detriment of the standard velocity loadings?