Indians For Guns

I recently came across a post somewhere else about "handling" of a shotgun.It raised some interesting points.

Many think that handling is something a personal,subjective feel while shooting a shotgun.However, this guy offers a different definition. I quote him.

"Handling was defined much better than I could define it by Gough Thomas who was a highly qualified engineer, as well as a gun writer.

GT said a good handling gun is one where the inertia of the extremities, the barrels and stock, does not resist the movements of the handler. He even devised a machine that could gauge these characteristics. The best handling side by side he tested was a French Darne.

To clarify this handling thing. It is not a subjective nebulous quality but the ease with which a gun of NORMAL WEIGHT responds in the hands when you start to point and shoulder it.

A 7lb Browning B25 game gun, even in the low A1 grade responds with less effort than many much more costly guns that like to call themselves "best" and that includes my Westley Richards."

This guy went on to claim that even the relatively cheaper shotguns can be better handling than the London Best guns when applied the above mentioned definition.

Any ideas whether you agree with this, disagree with this or add to this subject?All your inputs are appreciated.Thanks in advance.

Best-
Vikram

Gough Thomas talked an awful lot of sense - which is why he is still so highly regarded.
I`m not a Darne fan but there is no denying that they handle very well. The Scottish round actions are not far behind and then there are a whole raft of guns. My 12-bore 2" lightweight handles phenomenally well......and my Daniel Fraser is also very good indeed.......and that has a pistol grip - and both are boxlocks.
Several of the modern Italian O/U game guns handle very well - particularly those inspired by the Guerini designed B.R.Rizzinis.......including the Caesar Guerinis themselves ( obviously.)
And small frame 20-Bores have a decided advantage.
Note however that the guns referrd to are all game guns.
I don`t understand why a low grade Browning B25 should be singled out - the amount/quality of engraving or quality of wood makes no difference to a guns handling........and there are plenty of guns that handle better than a B25 anyway.

Thanks Grumps. Your post makes me ask a few more questions.

What exactly makes handling of the gun better?What are the design aspects? I understand that the woodwork, engraving and the rest of the frills have little bearing on it.Also, while not saying that all of them do, why would some of the London Best guns not handle as well as the rest?As handling is very important, why not all the Best guns designed to incorporate this?How subjective is this handling by which I mean is it something completely inherent in the gun or the shooter's build,technique etc influence it?Hope I make sense. Your inputs are greatly appreciated.Thanks in advance.

Best-
Vikram

What determines a guns ability to handle is covered by Gough Thomas` definition that you quote above.
In the case of the example of the B25 mentioned you have to remember that is a subjective opinion of the author of the piece - who is not Gough Thomas. I don`t agree that a B25 handles better than a London sidelock. It might suit the author better than his Westley Richards but I suspect that the matter of gunfit enters that equation - and a poorly fitting gun CANNOT handle well.
A low profile is a major aid to gun handling - and is where the Darne scores so highly. I know of no gun with a lower profile than a Darne. The Scottish round actions also have a very low profile so it can hardly be coincidence that the best handling guns have low profiles.......and side by sides have a much lower profile than over/unders. O/U gunmakers have been addressing the matter of the profile height for years and lower and lower designs have been produced but one thing they cannot do is to make two barrels mounted one above the other as low as two barrels which are side by side.
The matter of gun handling encompasses many aspects of gun design - weight, balance, barrel length, stock design ( height and width of comb, drop at heel and toe, cast, angle and thickness of the wrist, etc ) the action profile........even - subjectively - the style of rib which, although it doesn`t actively effect the handling, does make a major contribution to the perceived overall handling.
By the way, it isn`t the case that all side by sides handle better than all O/Us - there are plenty of poor handling guns in both styles - and a SxS Trap gun doesn`t handle like a SxS game gun, it handles like a Trap gun. The more specialised the discipline - and Trap has to be the most specialised - the more specialised the gun......and the less requirement for good, all-round handling.

Many thanks Grumps. I heard that the Browning Cynergy has the lowest profile of O/Us presently in production?

Best-
Vikram

As far as I know, yes.
Can`t say that I like the Cynergy much though........too much plastic in it.

By the way ( and here`s a fact to boggle at ) the English Open Skeet Championship in 2005 was won by a guy shooting an old SxS Greener.

Grumpy";p="37059 wrote:By the way ( and here`s a fact to boggle at ) the English Open Skeet Championship in 2005 was won by a guy shooting an old SxS Greener.

That's certainly an interesting tidbit! Grumps, not sure if you are aware but the NRAI has mandated the use of ONLY O/U guns for the clay disciplines here... slightly OT but would you know if there is any international precedent for this?

Cheers!
Abhijeet

I`ve no idea Abhijeet - I haven`t shot competitive Skeet for years so am not exactly au fait with the current situation. English Skeet is slightly different from International Skeet and championships usually include a SxS category however I think everyone was surprised when the chap won the overall classification.
By the way, the year he won might have been 2004 - can`t remember - but it was shot at Southern Counties which isn`t too far from here ( and is where that gunshop is that I`m going to take you to Vikram........except that their main outlet has just moved to Exeter and is reckoned to be probably the largest gunshop in Europe so maybe we`ll go there instead ! ) however I do remember that the Greener had a locking third bite and flattened fences.

May also be a case of the English man than the Longbow?

Shall be good fun going there,Grumps.

Best-
Vikram

"May also be a case of the English man than the Longbow?"

???

I wish that you`ld engage brain before typing Vickers. Sometimes it`s very obvious when you`ve been working late.........I don`t know what gets to you worst - the tiredness or the alcohol fumes - but you might as well be pissed as a newt for all the sense you make.

Grumpy";p="37168 wrote:"May also be a case of the English man than the Longbow?"

???

I wish that you`ld engage brain before typing Vickers. Sometimes it`s very obvious when you`ve been working late.........I don`t know what gets to you worst - the tiredness or the alcohol fumes - but you might as well be pissed as a newt for all the sense you make.

I meant that the chappy who won the tourney was very good and he "might" have done it with any other gun.Tried to paraphrase the "It's the Indian,not the arrow" thing.

You were very right about the observation though.

Best-
Vikram

I very much doubt that the gent would have won with any gun - he`s used the same Greener SxS for many years and a change of gun would not have been a good idea !

What is "profile" of a shotgun? Google search did not help much..

If its to do with the height of the barrel with the action, then how does high rib gun help or exist

cheers
Ranjeet

Yes, the profile - in the case of shotguns - refers to the height of the action. My apologies for lapsing into jargon without an explaination of the term.
The rib has very little effect upon the actual handling - the centre rib and the height of the top rib can have a minor influence, more to do with air resistance than actual weight ( high top ribs are ventilated - to reduce weight and to provide less air resistance - and centre ribs on a O/U are often ventilated or omitted altogether for the same reasons ) - but the height, width and form of the top rib can have a major influence upon the perceived handling. It is, after all, THE aspect of a gun that is seen whilst shooting.

I have been reading this thread for a while and wanted the experts to chime in before my observations.

From what I know, I can say that balance is how easily a shotgun comes up to your shoulder and how easily you can lock into a stance without contorting yourself at all. Also, when shooting the gun, you should not feel any recoil and the gun should not need the shooter to "adjust" to the second shot.

I think apart from how well balanced a stock gun is made, fitting the gun to an individual and for the purpose the gun is going to be used will eventually result in the perfectly balanced gun for that individual for that particular purpose.

One could start of with an order for a BEST gun and have a great foundation and start off building the gun "fit" for the purpose. I would think that one could also pick a good gun off the shelf and have it fit for the purpose at hand by a qualified fitter. I think by manipulating weight in the stock and fitting the stock oneself IF one is knowledgeable can also be done. Now, if we're discussing how this off the shelf gun is made and what characteristics it should have, like SxS vs O/U, high vs low profile etc..etc.. to qualify as a balanced gun then we can talk about different guns and action types.

I think the lower profile does have an impact. SxS although have lower profile but the wider (perceived) sighting plane is not everyone's game. I have even heard some people say that the very slight angle at which the SxS barrels are setup to each other also throws them off. Regarding the Cynergy, I've read online that they are similar to the Flodman/Caprinus shotguns, I've never seen the Flodman/Caprinus, except in pics online.



More pics at http://www.flodman.com/press/flodcdpix/index.htm

I think the profile of the Flodman/Caprinus/Cynergy, Perazzi and Beretta are relatively low because of how the locking block engages the barrels. A Browning has a bite under the barrels that increases the height of the profile a bit. I once picked up one of the 410 Perazzis out of a set of 4 priced at more than $300k and that "handled" so well, similar to a 410 Beretta. Shooting trap with a 410 will be a bit tough though. To each his own.

I hope I made sense in my post here .