Indians For Guns

1.What exactly is a 'solid bar action' and a 'bar in wood action'.

2.How do you identify one?

this is the best question on the forum boards so far REGARDING GUNS ! excellent question sir!

NEEDS TO BE PLACED ON KNOWLEDGE BASE OR OTHER APROPRIATE PLACE ON IFG.

this again needs a lot of explanation,but i am trying to give a comprehensive reply here as far as i remember.
during late 1800(if my dates are correct) most of the gun actions were primarily made out of solid steel billet called as steel bar stock (and still today) unlike the modern forged or cast actions.
there were initally three types of actions namely trigger plate locks,the back action hammerless sidelock and the bar-action sidelock ,all the locks were used in shotguns and double rifles .

hammered sidelocks developed into hammerless guns! all hammered guns were/are sidelocks therefore the feel of the hammered guns is quite balanced and some veteran shooters prefer sticking to these guns compared to the modern guns! these have good crisp triggers as well, being mounted close to hammer spurs like in modern sidelocks.

all these guns have their lock work mounted on plates either sides of the action,with the mainspring located either front of the hammers in the action bar(the solid sides of a sidelock action-solid bar of steel here)or behind them in a recess in the hand of the stock grip section- in this case this is known as back action sidelocks.

in the back action sidelock the strength of the back action sidelocks comes from the solid section of steel(the bar)of the action body that does not require hollowing out of section of steel to accomodate the mainspring as does in a bar-lock.

in the typical bar-lock action the action body is hollowed out from the sides to accomodate the mainspring like the modern sidelocks eg H&H Royal Hammerless Ejector gun.back action hammerless guns were replaced by bar-action hammerless guns for making best guns.and boxlocks for utility guns.


I HAD READ ABOUT THIS A LONG TIME BACK, THANKS TO MY MEMORY! FOR REMEMBERING FOR THIS LONG IN BITS AND PIECES THAT I HAVE BEEN COLLECTING FOR FEW DAYS NOW BEFORE POSTING! NOW I TEND TO FORGET THINGS FAST

Difference in appearance:

if we look at the hammered action we find it to be solid in apearance as compared to the modern sidelock or boxlock action as it does not have much slots for the moving parts except for the barrel lugs-compared to the other two types. that is why these are stronger than the other two!

since not many guns are made on these types of actions nowdays and modern sidelocks have taken their place instead ,and have inherited some remarkable features from hammered actions therefore the sidelock is considered to be the appropriate action for building best guns and hence sidelocks are difficult to make and are expensive,apart from all these features, these guns are very well balanced and have crisp triggers and morover their recoil datum is located nearer to the grip section of the gun because of the low action profile than the boxlock.


PS-sir, the question should be what is solid Bar-action and back action in wood?

????
A case of answering a question that hasn`t been asked.
I fail to see how this can be:

"the best question on the forum boards so far REGARDING GUNS !"

when the required answer is ignored and the question then `corrected` as being in error.
Bar-in-wood actions were a holdover from pre-cartridge firing guns that lasted a short ( ish ) while into the cartridge era.
In a bar-in-wood action the bar is surrounded by wood.
I would post a photograph on the basis that `a picture saves a thousand words` but the website informs me that `Sorry, but the maximum filesize for all Attachments is reached`. Bar-in-wood guns are however easily identified.
penpusher, I`ve attached a picture of a Purdey with a bar-in-wood in an email to you.

By the way, the term `solid` bar when applied to a back action sidelock is a misnomer as, while the bar doesn`t have the sides recessed to accomodate the springs, it has to be hollowed internally to accomodate the locking bolt.
In a self-cocking action the bar also has to be routed for the self-cocking `kickers`.
Whilst - technically - the so-called `solid` bar of a back action sidelock is stronger than that of a front ( `bar` ) action sidelock in practice this is of no consequence.
The MacNaughton skeletal action is often described as a `bar in wood` however this is innacurate as it actually utilises a trigger-plate action. The - apparent - complete absence of the bar is illusory as it is basically a styling exercise with the bar being slimmed and `hidden` under the wood.

I still can`t post the photograph of the bar-in-wood Purdey mentioned above........and it is NOT a case of the j.peg file being over the permitted size as it is only 70 kb.

E-mail it to me.

Bobby if you are quoting directly from published material (website/ book etc.) then please credit the source where you are quoting from. Not only is this considered as basic courtesy and (in many cases) is required by copyright laws, it also allows the reader to pursue further research if he/ she wishes to read up more on this/ related subjects...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Thanks to all for their replies.Would not have troubled anybody but have become a bit wary of the information on the net lately

"have become a bit wary of the information on the net lately".
You and me both mate. I`ve learned to check just about everything as there is some dreadful misinformation being offered online.......some of the material on Wikipedia in particular being unsupportable.
Mack The Knife, I`ve just tried to load the picture for the fourth time with no success - I get the same message every time. I`ll email it to you as suggested ...... hopefully you`ll have more luck.

I`m afraid that I`ve been guilty of assuming that members understood what the `bar` of the action is - here`s a brief de.scription extracted from an email that I`ve just sent to penpusher :

The `bar`is the horizontal part of the action that extends forward from the `face` of the action. ( the face is where the strikers protrude. ). The barrel flats rest on the table ( or `flats` ) of the bar and the breech face/s butt against the face.
The bar is machined out to accomodate the the locking bolt ( accessed by holes machined into the table where the barrel lugs are inserted. In a self-cocking gun the bar also has to accomodate the self-cocking `kicker`......and also the ejector kickers if ejectors are fitted.
A back-action sidelock hammer gun is not self cocking, doesn`t have ejectors and doesn`t need the sides of the bar recessed to accept the lock springs. This form of gun has what is erroneously referred to as a `solid` bar.
The vast majority of sidelock guns over the last 120 years or so have `front-action` locks which means that the leaf spring that powers the hammer projects forward and is located at the forward part of the lock plate. Although the spring is attached to the lock plate the bar has to have its outer edges recessed to accomodate the spring and lock plate.
A back action lock has the spring at rear of the lock plate.
The only advantage a so-called `sold` bar has is that it it is intrinsically stronger because is has less material machined away.
Muzzle loading guns don`t have - or need - a bar because the barrels don`t open. Many early breech loading guns retained features of muzzle loaders such as percussion style fences and full-length woodwork which ran underneath the bar. In some guns the upper portion of the bar was recessed to allow wood to run along the upper sides of the bar. Both types can be referred to as having the `bar-in-wood`.

Posting some pics on Grumpy's behalf.


The `bar-in-wood` Purdey mentioned above.




Ugartechea hammerless sidelock ejector plainly showing the lockplate extending forward into the bar in order to accomodate the spring.




Front-action hammer sidelock showing how the lock spring projects forward.




A hammer gun with front-action sidelocks - again plainly showing how the lockplates project forward into the bar.




A hammer gun with back action sidelocks and `solid` bar. It can be seen that because the spring is at the rear of the lock, the lockplate does not have to project forward into the bar.

Englishmen have an obvious advantage in something like this since they are the ones who went around naming all these parts.

"So what do we call this?" "Since we started with a bar of steel while making this,I think 'bar'"

And this "It's flat ........so lets call it 'flats'"

And this "Looks like the face of my mother-in-law so let's call it the face"

"And what do we call this entire contraption" "Well it gives more action than my missus so lets call it 'the action'"



PS-The last remark is not meant to be sexist in any way.Perhaps the fellow was repulsive

Oh! While we are at it ,why don't we give multiple names to all these parts.So let's call the flats the 'table'......Would confuse these damned colonials even more

'water table' penpusher?

[Go get 'im Grumpy]

Well, these damned Englishmen are succeeding in their plan.The proverbial 'foreign hand'