IOF 12 Bore DBBL chokes

[Belgian collector]

Greetings / Namaskar / Salam from Liege .
I have a question which l was hoping one of you kind Indian gentlemen could answer . I collect vintage shotguns ( double barrels , mostly ) . I came across repeated mentions of an IOF 12 Bore DBBL shotgun on this website . These very apparently the first shotguns made in India . I was wondering what the chokes were on these IOF 12 Bore DBBL shotguns ?Some sources say that the gun had no chokes at all. Some said that the guns were fully choked in both barrels .
Is there anyone here who can give me a definite answer ? I apologise for any inconvenience caused.
Regards,
Mr. H Florienti

[Vikram]

Hi,

I have asked a fellow member whose club has an IOF gun in their inventory. He has promised to check the chokes the next time he goes there. I will post here once I hear from him.

[Belgian collector]

Mr. Vikram , l cannot thank you enough for the trouble which you are taking.

[riflemarksman]

The one thing which is seen in Indian guns is that they are not the same in performance ......I have used my cousins IOF .22lr model 2004 and it was made very well and accurate without any issues out of the box but you dont see that in todays IOF rifles......you will have to check the pattern by shooting the shotgun and one thing I can say is that the IOF would not take so much pain and choke their barrels

[Belgian collector]

Riflemarksman, so it is safe to assume that these guns have what we Europeans call cylinder bore ?

[riflemarksman]

Yes they were mostly made cyclinder bores and IOF were the best quality double barrel guns made in India at that time.....they have stopped making them long time back

[Belgian collector]

Thank you , Rifle Marks Man , l appreciate it.

[mundaire]

I don't think that this is accurate information. Firstly, IOF was not the first to manufacture shotguns in India, there were several private manufacturers which were producing them in places like Jammu, Mandi, Munger, Jodhpur etc. While most of these privately produced guns were cylinder choked, some did and still do make them with choked barrels as well.

The IOF shotgun itself was a copy of the BSA shotgun and to the best of my knowledge, one barrel was full choke and the other was either Improved Cylinder or Modified Choke. Production started sometime after independence and they stopped production of these sometime in the 1980's I think (not sure).

The IOF pump action shotgun has a cylinder choke.

[Vikram]

Thanks to our member Penpusher, got these photos of the IOF SXS. Looks like IOF does not stamp choke marks on the gun. I think it does not mean that the gun does not have any chokes. Pay attention to the last photo.

He also said that the gun must have fired a LOT of rounds, having been in use in the National Cadet Corps, and still works.

[Sakobav]

another piece of information I gleaned from was from Africa Hunting forum where three PH shikaris from India in 70 who reside in Bangladesh had some info on IOF 12 gauge
"https://www.africahunting.com/threads/t ... ost-607730
This post of captain Nawaz Khan its per his experience just cross posting here
" IOF 12 Bore DBBL . This was a 12 bore side by side double barrel shotgun made by Indian Ordinance Factories with 2 3/4 inch chambers , extractors and 32 inch barrels . Even though Indian Ordinance Factories advertised their IOF 12 Bore DBBL guns as having fully choked barrels , the reality was that the guns had no choke in them whatsoever and had completely cylinder bored barrels ( l found this out the hard way one day , when l took the gun to shoot some high flying partridges . You can imagine my surprise when l was firing five or six #6 Eley Grand Prix cartridges at the flying partridges without being able to bring even one down . )."

[Belgian collector]

Thank you all so much . That is a very beautiful looking shotgun , Mr. Vikram .

[ASIF007]

another piece of information I gleaned from was from Africa Hunting forum where three PH shikaris from India in 70 who reside in Bangladesh had some info on IOF 12 gauge
"https://www.africahunting.com/threads/t ... ost-607730
This post of captain Nawaz Khan its per his experience just cross posting here
" IOF 12 Bore DBBL . This was a 12 bore side by side double barrel shotgun made by Indian Ordinance Factories with 2 3/4 inch chambers , extractors and 32 inch barrels . Even though Indian Ordinance Factories advertised their IOF 12 Bore DBBL guns as having fully choked barrels , the reality was that the guns had no choke in them whatsoever and had completely cylinder bored barrels ( l found this out the hard way one day , when l took the gun to shoot some high flying partridges . You can imagine my surprise when l was firing five or six #6 Eley Grand Prix cartridges at the flying partridges without being able to bring even one down . )."

Excellent article ....Thanks for sharing.

Regards

[eljefe]

While the quoted article is very informative, and the chokes on the shotgun may have indeed been cylinder, the subjective manner of assessing the chokes is a bit lacking. Maybe he didn’t have the wherewithal to assess it ?

[Belgian collector]

I joined the African forum yesterday and sent Captain Newaz a private message asking about the IOF 12 Bore DBBL. The gentleman was kind enough to send me a very polite and detailed response . I have copy pasted the message here ( with the gentleman's permission ) in case you gentlemen may be interested .
Here is is :
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Dear Mr. Florienti ,
It is my pleasure to make your acquaintance . The Indian Ordinance Factories 12 Bore double barreled gun ( known as IOF 12 Bore DBBL . ) was licensed in my Uncle Josh's name. It was of 12 bore . It had 2 3/4 inch ( 70 millimeter ) chambers , extractors and 32 inch barrels. I can attest for a fact that the gun had no chokes in it whatsoever. You European gentlemen will probably understand it as a " cylinder bore ". The problem with cylinder bore shotguns is that they tend to throw dismal shot patterns at all , but the closest of ranges ( say ten metres , but certainly not more . ) . A cylinder choke shotgun can be a very useful thing for skeet shooting , because of the wide pattern that you can achieve to break the target. However , for the purposes of hunting with shot , a cylinder choke shotgun is no good. The pattern will disperse too fast . An ethical hunter will never use a cylinder choke shotgun for bird hunting , because of this reason . The wide pattern of shot will injure many birds , but will not be concentrated enough to kill them quickly and cleanly. Thus , you will have many wounded birds escaping to die a lingering death . For ethical bird hunting , a shotgun with at least some form of choke is advised ( l find that for double barreled shotguns , a quarter choke in the left barrel and a half choke in the right barrel is appropriate . ) . The only scenario where a cylinder choke shotgun is acceptable for bird hunting is if you are hunting partridges with dogs with # 6 shot . This is because you are shooting the partridges the moment the dogs flush them out of the bush , at extremely close range and so the lack of chokes are of no consequence. When my uncle Josh purchased that shotgun in 1959 , the dealer said that the barrels were fully choked. However , when we actually started shooting it , we noticed that the gun behaves as if it has no chokes at all and the shot pattern was opening up very fast . We eventually had a gunsmith measure the bores and true enough , the bore constriction was 0.00 .
The IOF 12 Bore DBBL guns were some of the finest Indian guns of the era , but they were not perfect . Quality was hit or miss. We were incredibly lucky that our's was one of the better made examples . One thing about IOF 12 Bore DBBL guns is that some models had ejectors while others ( like Uncle Josh's ) had extractors . Never purchase the ones with ejectors , because they do not work properly ( IOF soon stopped making the 12 Bore DBBL guns with ejectors for this reason ) . Always purchase the ones with extractors .Before Hunting was banned in India in 1972 , the IOF 12 Bore DBBL guns were a very common sight among local hunters for bird shooting . Most locals had only one gun which they would use for all of their hunting purposes . An IOF 12 Bore DBBL was an affordable and versatile choice for local hunters. You could use bird shot for wing shooting and you could use a single ball cartridge for shooting Muntjac deer or a boar . I know that l have stated above that cylinder choke shotguns are no good for ethical bird shooting . However , quite a few locals would still try to shoot water fowl and high flying birds with them , often ending up wounding a great deal of birds . Hunting ethics were practically non existent in the old days . Fortunately in modern times , most hunters are far more ethical and use appropriate armaments . Once l figured out that the IOF 12 Bore DBBL had no chokes , the only bird shooting that l ever did with it , was when hunting partridges over dogs ( as l have described above . )

IOF 12 Bore DBBL guns were actually really good for this kind of work ( hunting partridges over dogs . )
I used to know an Indian hunter of reasonable fame named Don Anderson , who was based in Bangalore and used to be the son of British writer , Kenneth Anderson . Don used many shotguns in his life , but towards the end of his hunting career , he used three firearms . He had a Mauser chambered in .404 Jeffery ( if my memory serves me correctly ) for big game , an Indian Ordinance Factories .315 bore sporting rifle for Chital Deer and boars and an IOF 12 Bore DBBL for wing shooting . He seemed reasonably happy with his shotgun .
I think that there is a book written about Don recently . But l am not certain . I have not seen him since 1981 . I believe he passed away five years ago . However , l do know that he owned an IOF 12 Bore DBBL gun when he was still hunting.

Today , Indian Ordinance Factories no longer manufacturers the IOF 12 Bore DBBL . I believe that they stopped manufacturing it in the 1990s . They manufacture a pump action shotgun now and l hear that their manufacturing techniques are much more consistent now . If they put their minds to it , Indian craftsmen can truly make some beautiful pieces which are quite functional and serviceable.
If l can assist you with any further information , please do not hesitate to get in touch . Belgium is a beautiful country. I have been to Liege a few years ago on tour with my family .
Yours faithfully,
Captain Newaz
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[snipeshot]

Quite a discussion, let me clear that, IOF DBBL has one cylinder barrel and one choke barrel. But its not clear whether its full choke or half choke.