Indians For Guns

My cousin is in market to fill up his single barrel shotgun licence when he came across a rather unusual gun. It's a single barrelled, smooth bore, 12 gauge bolt action shotgun. It belonged to an old retired government servent and now biting the dust in a gunhouse. Condition of the gun is good & since the owner of the gunhouse is a an old associate he has offered the gun at a fairly cheap price! I am posting few pics of the gun below..can you please identify the make, country of origin & probable year of manufacture to me!

Thanks in advance!

-Nishith

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i am not sure but is this japanese make of the world war times ?

I did some research online....The Gun seems to be of Belgian origin!
The Lion & PV mark represents Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms.
similarly, the crown & ELG mark represents arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. In now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders.
12-70 I guess represents the gauge & cartridge case length.

Checkout the links given below:

http://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html


-Nishith

yess ..just got the link ..its belgian !

Here is the logo http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=295608

Hmm...it seems there is no doubt that it's of Belgian origin..Can it be used to safely fire SA 12 Bore 70mm Astram Cartridge (Smokeless) manufactured by Indian Ordinance factory?

-Nishith

The gun is a French Chassepot military rifle converted/rebarreled to a shotgun in Belgium. It originally used a combustible cartridge, i.e. the French answer to the Prussian Dreyse "needle rifle". This was a fairly common practice beginning in the 1890s as black powder military rifles had become obsolete and were sold off in huge numbers. Most of them went to the colonial markets.
Unlikely to be chambered for 70mm/2 3/4" shells.

TwoRivers wrote:The gun is a French Chassepot military rifle converted/rebarreled to a shotgun in Belgium. It originally used a combustible cartridge, i.e. the French answer to the Prussian Dreyse "needle rifle". This was a fairly common practice beginning in the 1890s as black powder military rifles had become obsolete and were sold off in huge numbers. Most of them went to the colonial markets.
Unlikely to be chambered for 70mm/2 3/4" shells.

Sir,

12-70 mark is stamped on the barrel... Does that not mean that it can chamber 12 gauge 70mm cartridge?

-Nishith

Are you absolutely sure that the 12-70 doesn't mean the 12th month of 1870?

It sounds like you are going to try firing it with a 12 ga. cartridge no matter what any one says.

If you do, tie it to an old truck tire, run a long string from the trigger to your hiding place behind a rock or large tree. Point it out towards an open field or earth berm and pull the trigger. Better yet, have the guy who is trying to sell it to you pull the string. I mean, he should have no issue with that, he wouldn't be trying to sell you an unsafe gun, would he?

I sure wouldn't want to to be holding it if it blows up.

To be fair, it does seem to have a smokeless powder proof and the 12-70 with the oval around was used a gauge and chamber length indicator by the Belgians. However, I would still be leery of being the first one to try firing it.

I missed the 12-70 marking when I looked at the pics earlier, so apparently it is chambered for 70mm shells. XL has a point, but since the marking is on the barrel, which was fitted later, it is unlikely to be the production date of the action, with which it would coincide. But still, that gun originated in the 1860s. Unless the marking were ground off when is was converted to a shotgun, the manufacturing French arsenal should be marked on the left side of the receiver.

For identification of a gun, a good clear picture of the action, and manufacturers markings, if any, or national seals, are far more important than proof marks.

TwoRivers wrote:I missed the 12-70 marking when I looked at the pics earlier, so apparently it is chambered for 70mm shells. XL has a point, but since the marking is on the barrel, which was fitted later, it is unlikely to be the production date of the action, with which it would coincide. But still, that gun originated in the 1860s. Unless the marking were ground off when is was converted to a shotgun, the manufacturing French arsenal should be marked on the left side of the receiver.

For identification of a gun, a good clear picture of the action, and manufacturers markings, if any, or national seals, are far more important than proof marks.

Sir,

Here's the picture of the marking on the action! I tried searching it on net but couldn't find similar identification mark. I am sure senior members would come forward & shed some light...

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-Nishith

HI NIshith,

Word of advice, give up on this gun.......this is not Nitro Proof, you are in trouble with today's carts. Astram, no way.
Unless you are the rare collector of antique.

There are plenty of English ones in the market, you can grab any good one, and if you want I can help you decipher english markings.


Cheers...

Actually the lion with the PV under it is a Belgium Nitro Proof but you do have a point.
Will it handle a steady diet of today's cartridges? I wouldn't want to be the one to find out that it wont.

Thanks guys for the wonderful inputs..It's decided then it would be foolish to buy this gun & use it as a wall hanger. Will revert back as soon as I find another gun!

-Nishith