Indians For Guns

Recently, Perazzi introduced what they called High-Pheasant guns in the form the their HPX line sporting 34" barrels.

http://www.highpheasants.com/gun-review ... r-2010.pdf

http://www.highpheasants.com/about-us-l ... -shotguns/


I have been trying to understand the concept and usage, having neither shot the gun nor did any driven shooting or ultra long range clay shooting. Been digging up a bit. As I understand there is little ballistic advantage in terms of range with 34" barrels. With same loads, a 34" barrel may offer the same range as,say, a 28" barrel. The choke will make a difference. However, the longer barrel seem to offer more pointability and balance according to the proponents. Despite not having the luxury of shooting one, I am skeptical.

Shooter, our member, does a lot of driven shooting. Perhaps he should be able to share his experience with us.

This excellent article touches upon many interesting aspects of long range, for a shotgun, shooting. You may never get to shoot these guns or go on a driven pheasant shooting, but knowledge for the sake of it may be a satisfying exercise.

http://www.fieldsportsmagazine.com/Shoo ... sible.html

HIGH, WIDE AND IMPOSSIBLE?

We all want to be presented with high pheasants, but are we really up to them? Rupert Godfrey is concerned that some Guns are not showing sufficient respect for their quarry.

It was a couple of years ago when I was invited to join a party on one of Devon’s famous high bird shoots. I’ve never been a great fan of this type of shoot, but I hadn’t been to one for some years, and thought it would be interesting to go along with an open mind and see if my views had changed. On the first drive I had drawn peg eight, so was able to watch the action down the line. The morning was damp with a light mist and breeze. The gun line faced a steep bank, on the top of which lay a cover crop.

Looking at an Ordnance Survey map that evening, I discovered that the front edge of the cover crop was at least 80 metres above the gun pegs.

The drive started and birds began to climb from the cover over the Guns. There was a lot of banging for not much result. My loader asked me why I wasn’t shooting and I replied that I was waiting for a bird that I thought was in range. I was using 32g 5s and plenty of choke, so knew I could kill with confidence at around 50-55 yards.

At the end of the drive, 244 shots had been fired, and the bag - after a large number of pickers-up had come in - was 12 pheasants. Most of the team thought it had been a fantastic drive, even though only four of the line claimed to have killed a bird. Privately, I thought it was a complete waste of time and totally unsporting.

Although the drives which followed were much more reasonable, I was only killing one bird for 4-5 shots and my own rule of thumb is that if I can’t average one in four, then I shouldn’t be shooting. The final bag was nearly 300 but with well over 2500 shots. I killed 14% of the bag (and should have had another ten birds picked up) for 8% of the shots, which put the average across the day for the rest of the team at one bird for over nine shots. Two of the other Guns did considerably better than that, so the others did a lot worse! Most of that gun line really shouldn’t have been there, as they simply weren’t good enough.

So what does it take to be a great high pheasant shot - and by ‘high’ I mean at least 50 yards up? I think three things: innate ability, which means great hand/eye coordination, the right gun and cartridge, and an ability to ‘read’ the bird, correctly judging its range and speed.

Over the past couple of seasons, I’ve been lucky enough to see a couple of renowned high pheasant shots on the top of their form. The first, Tony Ball, is well known for his all-round shooting ability, but to see him on song was a joy, as high bird after high bird was despatched with great style. At the time, I had never seen anyone shoot so consistently.

On another occasion, I was beside him on the highest drive on his Dorset shoot, and I stopped shooting (he was happy as he took the birds I left, behind me!). At the end of the drive, he enquired why I had stopped. I explained that I had hit, with both barrels, the first four pheasants which had come over me, and then watched them disappear into the distance. My gun and cartridges, I decided, were not up to the task and I didn’t want to wound rather than kill. He replied that he wished a few more people had the same attitude.

On this occasion, I was also with Peter Schwerdt, a great pigeon-shooting buddy of mine. We’ve shared a hide on several occasions to check on each other’s technique (and to proffer unwanted advice!). I have watched him on the end of the line on an excellent Wiltshire pheasant shoot, where his performance was simply outstanding: every bird was shot in the head and came down stone dead. Modestly, he said that they were much easier than those he was used to at North Molton, but I would have been ecstatic to shoot 50% of what he had killed with ease.

Apart from their exceptional skill, what links these two men is their correct choice of guns and ammunition: heavy loads and plenty of choke. This may even mean 36g loads and 4s rather than 5s.

I purloined some of Peter’s Buffalo shells for a January day on one of Dorset’s best pheasant shoots. Despite putting such a load through my light (but heavily choked) side-by-side, I shot much better than I had hoped, as I was confident that I COULD kill and so I did.

Too many Guns, however, are still thinking that 1oz loads are perfectly adequate, whether through a 20-bore or a 12. A lucky pellet may bring off a fluke shot at long range, but more Guns should be aware of their own limitations and also realise that there are plenty of shoots now, where birds flying directly over them may be well out of shot. The resulting wounded birds do the sport no favours.

Vertical range is very difficult to judge, especially with no reference points, and is often, I think, under-estimated. I was once playing with a laser rangefinder while lying on the deck of a friend’s very sumptuous yacht. The top of the mast was 39 metres above the deck - say 43 yards - but the seagulls flying well above it looked to be at a very shootable height. Without the mast as reference, I certainly wouldn’t have put them at higher than 35 yards.

In idle moments, when in London, I often try to estimate the height of buildings (especially if there are pigeons flying around them!). What looks to be well within shot is often at 60 yards plus. Great Shots understand range and also watch each bird very carefully: is it climbing, curling, just drifting with the wind or dropping and accelerating?

I can never understand it when people suggest that the best way to deal with a bird that comes from a long way away is not to look at it until you are ready to shoot! They have missed out on all the information that bird has been giving out as it flies towards them and often have to hurry to take their shot, usually resulting in a miss.

So let’s all give this wonderful gamebird - the pheasant - the respect it deserves. Use the right guns and ammunition and only shoot at what you KNOW you have more than a reasonable chance of killing. Or be as good as Tony Ball and Peter Schwerdt!

Johnny Goodhart has been shooting at Haddeo, one of the west country’s finest, for 10 years. In that time he’s seen two distinct trends emerge - the disappearance of the side-by-side shotgun and increasing usage of 5 and 4 shot cartridges.

“I’m still shooting with a side-by-side, but I seem to be in ever-decreasing company,” he says. He shoots a pair of Holland & Hollands and an Arizabalaga, the latter with interchangeable barrels so that he has three-quarter and full choke to call on. Both guns will cope with 32g Rio fibre loads (which his company CCI happen to import!).

“The guns might require a decent service at the end of the season, but despite being much lighter than over-unders, they handle the cartridges OK - though I wouldn’t push it and use 36g loads in them. Some of the boys down here are using 40g loads which I definitely wouldn’t entertain. My guns are just not suitable.

“I’m not a great shot but I don’t embarrass myself and connect with my share. So while I can keep on doing that I will continue to fly the flag for the side-by-side.”

He has clear views with regard to the criticisms of poor bird-to-shot ratios and out-of range shooting, too.

“I think one of the big problems is that people tend not to be terribly good at judging distance overhead. Everyone becomes pre-occupied with lead when, in fact, they are probably missing because they are off line. Birds tend not to fly straight, they drift. You will see a top shot, who might miss a couple, put his gun down and watch the next bird very carefully before resuming and connecting. If you are not on the same line as the pheasant, it really doesn’t matter how much lead you give it - it will keep on flying.”

As regards height, he feels a shoot should be looking to present birds at 40-45 metres. “It is important that birds are within shot and the Guns are capable of shooting and killing them cleanly and effectively. We are very strict on that at Haddeo and that applies no matter what type of gun you are using. The bird needs to match the abilities of the shooting line.

“This is why on most decent high bird shoots the first drive will be a test of the team’s shooting ability, and from that point the shoot captain and head keeper will flush accordingly. A difference of 8-10 metres at the flushing point will have an incredible difference as to the height at which the birds will fly over the Guns.”

Justin Birkett has been running North Yorkshire’s highly acclaimed Revaulx shoot for 12 years (his family for 25 years) and over that time has seen a change in two ways. “People are now either going for bigger guns and loads or for small 28 gauge guns and big loads (at least for the size of the gun). Then the new breed are now shooting 36grams. It all comes down to the question of how high is a high pheasant? I personally get annoyed when people tell me that they went to an amazing shoot where they saw thousands of pheasants and couldn’t hit them. Someone told me the other day that they were on a shoot where 500 birds came over and they shot four! Why do it?

“The average game shot struggles at 40 yards so why present birds that are at extreme range? We present good, testing birds at Revaulx but they are all killable. Of course there will be a few higher exceptions on any day, but for the most part they are in range.

“Personally, I shoot a 1oz load throughout, but will use 5 shot in January. And this is usually good enough for any proper sporting bird.”

Tony Ball is widely recognised as an outstanding game shot, but he also runs two highly rated shoots - Upcerne in Dorset and another family shoot, Bowcombe, on the Isle of Wight. “A lot of my long-standing shooting friends have side-by-sides and for partridges these guns are absolutely fine, but pheasants are a lot harder, particularly longer range shots.

“On a really good curling pheasant you have to find the exact spot and it is very difficult to be consistent beyond 30 yards. Judging distance in the sky is very difficult. I remember at Chargot, in order to test just how high the birds were on Collies drive, some halogen balloons were floated to 50 yards. We were amazed to find that most of the pheasants were flying above them.

“For these sort of birds, if you want any success then you need to use 32g cartridges. I use JK6 No. 5. I have tried 36g but I personally find the recoil too much. And I think 32g of 5 will cleanly kill any bird that is within the range of a shotgun. The gun, of course, is important and I use a Perazzi 30 ¾" choked full and full, or full and extra full. Without this sort of equipment I regret it is not possible to consistently kill the kind of pheasants that are being shown on some of the West Country pheasant shoots.”

Will Criddle is Bettws Hall shoot manager with responsibility for two shoots in Wales, two in Shropshire and the two Molland shoots in Devon - all high bird venues. “We had a team out today who, with one exception, were all using long barrelled over-unders with 36g 4s. This is now fairly typical. But the one exception was using a side-by-side and 30g cartridges of 6 shot and he was pulling down some amazing birds. I personally like to see a side-by-side being used for pheasant shooting.”

Gordon Robinson who runs the British Field Sports Agency at Royal Berkshire Shooting School, takes parties to many of the best known shoots, such as Stanage, Downton, Kempton, Brigands, Chargot and Molland. “Yes, there are now a lot more people using 34g of 4s, though there is an argument that if you need any more than that should you be shooting?

“Interestingly I have been out today at Downton with an American team, who were mostly shooting traditional English side-by-sides which was very nice to see. One was shooting 30g of 5 shot in his pair of 30" William Powells without any problem. It depends on the cartridge and the weight of the gun.

“The Americans tend to favour the traditional side-by-side and the tweeds too. It is great to see and today’s team shot very well.”

He added that there is a big demand for high bird shooting, despite the cost of up to £32 (plus vat) per bird. “They are all very well run and a newer shoot to watch for is Combe Sydenham - it is extremely good.”

The UK’s largest cartridge manufacturer is Lyalvale Express, whose managing director Roger Hurley confirms that there has been a definite trend towards bigger loads in response to the growth of high pheasant shooting.

“People are starting to understand the laws of physics,” he smiles. “A big ball travels further than a small one and we have seen a demand for shot sizes spread from six to five to four.” He makes the analogy with an overseas police department, in a country where police will fire a gun at a car to stop it. They know that a 28g load will only scratch paint, but a 28g load with a slug will stop it.

Lyalvale’s big selling load for high pheasants is the Supreme Game in 32g and 36g.There is a 30g version in 7, 6 and 5 shot, while the 32g and 36g offer a choice of 6, 5 and 4. Many high bird shooters like 36g but there is little that 32g of 4 shot will not stop. Richard Faulds uses these. “By using a mix of powders we are able to deliver a cartridge that is both powerful but comfortable. I have no recoil pad on my guns (a pair of Perazzis) but am perfectly happy to shoot these cartridges all day.” These big loads enjoy the benefits conferred by slow burning powders by French producers Vectan. “I particularly enjoy high pheasant shooting and go to shoots in the West Country, Wales and Yorkshire in the knowledge that these cartridges will kill pheasants at optimum ranges and I will suffer no ill-effects of recoil.” They also make a 30g load in 20-bore called the Somerset.

Gamebore’s high bird speciality load is the Buffalo. Managing director Steve Dales explained how the Buffalo has gone through a 12-year period of evolution. “It started out as a live pigeon load before being adopted by some for the FITASC Sporting, including world champion Ben Husthwaite. Then about five or six years ago, one or two started to use the Buffalo for high pheasant shooting and it has all gone on from there. We sell it in 32g and 36g with shot size choices of 6, 5 and 4. The trend here has definitely been for a bigger shot.

“We use a Boffers progressive powder so while, yes, there is more recoil than on a smaller load, there is not as much punch as might be expected.”

Graham Morris at Eley Hawk confirms the trend towards bigger shot and bigger loads. “We certainly sell a lot more 5s than we used to and we now have 4s in both the Grand Prix High Pheasant range and VIPs. The latter we have available in 28, 30, 32 and 36g loads and it seems to be a popular choice. Though having said that Impax and Grand Prix are selling very well.”

Sue Bontoft of Hull Cartridge Company has also noticed that, in addition to the demand for bigger shot in the Stirling and High Pheasant range, there is a big swing to fibre wad cartridges. “Fibre wad cartridges are, of course, much more environmentally friendly and many estates now will not entertain plastic wads. Fibre wads have also come a long way and their performance is now very much a match for the plastic version.”

Best-
Vikram

Interesting will read the article in detail

Thanks

Vikram,perhaps the longer barrel helps to prevent the pattern from opening up too fast and hence enables longer shots????

There seems to be two schools of thought here. Some people say that you don't need the longer barrels as tight patterns can be handled by chokes, etc. Today's shot shells are also quite good. Some of the specialty wads used give really tight patterns. Turkey Hunters, for example, use special chokes and special turkey loads that give tight patterns at longer distances. I realize its not the same thing as shooting a moving target but...

I'm not that much into wild fowling but maybe Grumpy or Shooter could comment here.

The concept of a longer barrel providing a "better range" harks back to the days of black powder.
As we know, black powder is a slow burning powder and the longer barrel length definitely helps gain more velocity by allowing a heavier charge (measured in drams) more complete combustion.

As XL Target correctly points out, it is the choke, coupled with the design of the wad, that determines the range.

The longer barrel helps with the sight plane allowing a more accurate placement of the pattern, as well as helping achieving a smoother swing.

Long shots are the purview of the duck and goose hunter with a 60 yard shot at pheasants being a very long shot indeed.

winnie_the_pooh wrote:Vikram,perhaps the longer barrel helps to prevent the pattern from opening up too fast and hence enables longer shots????

Winnie,

I think that, shot pattern, would be largely dependent on the chokes.


Best-
Vikram

Those 34" guns haven`t been introduced by Perazzi - they`re special orders to the specification of John Jeffries and the stocks are finished/fitted and the triggers `honed` by him.
Why 34" ? Goodness knows. I`ve read the theory and think it`s mostly bollox but if it gives people confidence then of course it will improve their shooting.
There`s no velocity advantage with long tubes as max velocity is achieved at around 28" - in fact the 34" tubes will reduce velocity somewhat due to friction. When a 36" Marlin Goose gun was tested years ago the barrel was cut down one inch at a time and the velocity went up as the barrel was shortened before starting to decline again. The barrel was only 18" long when the velocity was the same as the full 36" ! When the US Army were testing shotguns they found that there was only an approximate 10% gain in velocity between 18" and 28" and none thereafter. There is also no advantage regarding patterning with long barrels. Patterning can change with barrel length even when using the same amount of choke - for reasons that are not fully understood .... mostly because there hasn`t been adequate research/testing yet - but it would appear to have some relation to resonance as the changes in pattern ( tightening and loosening ) are not linear - ie, they don`t get tighter/looser with increasing length. They will get tighter with length and then looser and then tighter, etc. This is also effected by the amount of choke used and the cartridges used - it might be that a Browning Boss type device for shotguns could be effective.
Long barrels make a gun more steady .... until they get too long. 30" is plenty enough for me for example.

sorry for jumping in late.

i am nowhere as experienced as other people but may offer my 2 cents.
First things first: Stance, footwork, technique remain THE basis for hitting the high pheasants. Or any high bird for that matter.

Secondly it is the gun that one is comfortable with. For example, if i'm given an 8 bore, i might not be able to actually hit more birds with t since i wont be comfortable handling it.

Thirdly, I agree 100% with Grumpy that more length leads to more steadiness upto a limit. Doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that a 100 inch barrel is not more steady than a 26" one. The weight of longer barrels leading to increased inertia, leading to swing may lead to steadiness. Again two different schools for how 'front heavy' a gun should be. Longer and longer barrels might need adjustment in the balance. Then again have met shooters who prefer front heavy guns.

Please note here that i am talking here about game not clay shooters.

In pratice, i feel comfortable with 28-30" barrels. I have shot with 26-34". shot between 28-50 grams (latter for geese). Shot between AAA to 7.5 shot.

If you read books/expert opinion, they all converge to 28-30" barrels again. Mike recommends a 20 bore over 12. And look at him shoot pheasants so beautifully.

I dont think any expert in the world would disagree that barrel length is not the most important thing in bringing down a high pheasant. Neither is it the second, the third, fourth or fifth most important thing.

Also, historically, barrel lengths also go in and out of fashion. Currently we are in an increasing length trend. I remember my first thread here about buying guns. In those days 30" was considered long (ish). Now its more towards standard length. recently 34" came in vogue for sporting users and not surprisingly in this gun.

Also with reference to skeetshots comment re: a 60 yard pheasant, it would be a phenomenal shot. For mere mortals, 40 yards pheasant is a good shot. 50 yards would be an amazing shot.

Some very good points Shooter.
There`s no doubting that the most important thing in shooting is the ability of the person shooting the gun. A good shot will shoot well with a poor gun whereas the best gun in the world will not make a poor shot shoot well. It`s a fact that if you don`t stand correctly and don`t hold and mount the gun correctly you won`t shoot well.
It was John Jeffries who was mostly responsible for leading the trend towards guns with 32" barrels for Sporting Clays .... ably supported by Michael Yardley. I can see their reasoning but for me 32" barrels are usually too long because they take longer and require more effort to get moving - and to stop.
I think that there are an awful lot of feeble/recoil sensitive people around nowadays. In the earlier years of the 20th century guns would use 1 1/8 oz ( 32 gm ) loads in 6 1/4 lb - 6 3/4 lb sidelocks accounting for hundreds of birds a DAY sometimes .... and they would often shoot 5-6 days a week in season. Nowadays people will complain about the recoil of 1 oz ( 28 gm ) cartridges in a 7 3/4 lb - 8 lb gun ........
I was amazed to discover last year whilst testing a gun on ground that had been used for a driven bird shoot a few days before that many of those participating had been using 1 oz, 7 1/2 shot cartridges. 1 oz of 7 1/2 shot for pheasants ? ! If a hundred years ago the standard pheasant load was 1 1/8 oz of No. 5 or 6 shot what makes those people think that 1 oz of No. 7 1/2 will do nowadays ? They seem to think that pheasants have got softer .... or smaller .... or something. Probably it`s the case that they didn`t think at all.
High birds @ 55 yards will take some killing at the best of times. A pheasant taken at 55 yards is a ( VERY ) good shot in normal shooting but at 55 yards vertically that`s extremely good shooting. In those circumstances I want at least 1 1/8 oz of No 5s .... and wouldn`t be averse to 1 1/4 oz of No.4s. 1 oz of 6, 7 or 7 1/2 just isn`t up to the job. Certain shoots have a reputation for providing exemplary high birds but the trend has become almost ridiculous as some of those 55 yard high birds will be at over 60 yards. There are stories of certain distinctive cock birds being recognised time and time again as they fly over the same pegs during a season...........................