Indians For Guns

Ideal-16bore SXS.Made in France.






http://www.guntrader.co.uk/GunsForSale/110909125317858


Best-
Vikram

vikers you should be banned from the forum. digging up such buites

i have never seen a 16bore.
this one is a treat to our eyes.checkering seems so fine.
thanks friend.

Interesting design, especially the unusual triggers and opening lever. The notch at the rear of the stock is for a retracting sling?

Cheers!
Abhijeet

That is indeed for a retractable sling.

Very nice. Don't see a lot of french guns. Thanks for sharing.

Herb

The Ideal is one of the shotguns made by the state owned firm of Manufacture d' Armes de Saint Etienne, later shortened to Manufrance. The town of St Ettiene attracted many creative and talented gunmakers and it was here that the production of the unique round action box lock known as the IDEAL was born.

Some might say the IDEAL is just a French version of the round action Dickson or MacNaughton of Scotland. In actuality, it is a completely different design utilizing a vertical bolting mechanism and an under lever that opens the gun and cocks the hammers

While I have not been fortunate to handle or study the Ideal, I have had the pleasure to study and handle the Robust, another innovative shotgun also made by Manufrance in St Ettiene.

Simple and effective in design, what struck me about the Robust action was the lack of sharp edges and the strength of its components. Those who have owned this design will share with me its reliability and ruggedness, nothing really goes wrong with these guns unlike the British or Italian or Spanish designs.

The trigger design with its double guard beats me. I wonder what is behind this design. I doubt it could be to prevent doubling the gun, often caused by "strumming" the triggers, but one can clearly see that this design would definitely prevent that.

The French seem to delight in engineering things differently! But often times, I think they have as good of an idea (or maybe better) than what we, in the rest of the world, consider normal.

I have seen some pictures of these Ideal shotguns without the double trigger guard, but with the action lever on the "normal" trigger guard. Like Skeetshot, I suspect that this was intended to prevent doubling without the complication of a single trigger. The action itself does seem quite slim. However, I have mixed feelings about the doll's head.

It's my understanding that British aristocrats preferred straight underlug locking because, in pass shooting, they stood in a blind and shot with several guns, which were loaded and passed to them by their man as needed, while fired guns were returned for loading. The man could reload extractor guns faster with a flat breach, rather than one cluttered up by doll's heads or locking lug ribs. So many of the finest British guns locked by underlug alone, despite the fact that the point of greatest stress is where a doll's head would be. In other words, most British classics sacrificed some strength for convenience.

Since the point of greatest stress is where the doll's head is, it seems to me that this is the best place to locate a lock. Rather than a doll's head and underlug combined, if the flat breach is to be sacrificed, it seems pointless to have a doll's head and underlug lock when the underlug can be completely dispensed with and the lock included in the rib extension. From a strength perspective, having two means of locking seems to me to be like a man who wears a belt and braces at the same time. This includes unnecessary weight and complexity to the design.

However, theory aside, it does look like a very nice piece!

-- Sat Sep 10, 2011 17:35 --

PS: Vikram, are you hinting that this is John Cleese's shotgun?

i also wonder if this design would result in the second shot taking slightly longer than the conventional guard.
The delay may be in milliseconds but could make a difference on that partridge/grouse/goose.

That pull/push-up opening lever behind the trigger guard is not that unusual, though the French seem to have used it the most. I have also seen in on cheaper Italian guns. The Russians are using it on their break-open singles, shotguns and rifles, and their combination .22 LR/.410s. That double trigger-guard, however, is highly unusual. I wonder, whether it was meant to give you an instant choice of barrel, by allowing you to keep a finger on both triggers; a practice that usually ends with both barrels going off. Would be interesting to see the patent for that one!