IOF shotguns

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Bespoke
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IOF shotguns

Post by Bespoke » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:07 pm

This morning I met a gentleman who was of the view that early IOF shotguns, which still command premium prices in India, are comparable to BSA shotguns and some of the more mediocre European guns. There are people who buy IOF shotguns with their eyes shut but I would like to present some facts about early IOF shotguns.

The production of sporting arms in India began in November of 1952 under supervision of Mr. M.N Walton who was superintendent of Rifle factory as Ishapore ,Mr. Walton suggested that and English made double barrel gun should be copied and 25 year old B.S.A shotgun was drawn from Rifle factory Museum and used as a model .The first lot of guns and barrels were complete in February 1953 and sent to London Proof house you can find a lot of dealers say that the Barrels of early IOF were imported from Britain etc which is not true ,The first lot of guns and barrels were promptly reject by London proof house for following reasons.
1) The barrels were “rivelled” meaning that the bores are very wary, thus impossible for the viewer in pre proof and after proof views to determine changes in the bores if any.
2) Chambers not to gauge
3) Action face of more than “.002”.Since guns are rejected if .002” gap appears after proof, obviously the gap cannot be accepted before the proof
4) Looseness in Action
5) The tubes sent for provisional proof were not accepted because they were chambered, hence making it impossible to fix a plug.

The guns and tubes came back to Ishapore were they were altered according to the advice of London proof Master. Then the guns were sent to Rifle factory proof house Mr. A.G Harrison was Poof Master there he again rejected them because bore diameter was less than .729” ,the bores were than lapped out to accept .729” plug gauge and returned to the proof house. The First Indian made shotguns passed proof in March 1953

Another interesting fact here is that in 1956 Col.R.Williams working in Kirkee Ammunition factory ,suggested to Government of India that large stock of Ballistite B-16 usually used for grenade cartridge ,The Duplex load of Blackpower and Ballistite B-16 could be used for definitive shotgun proofing .Mr. A.G Harrison protested on this commenting that burning and loading characteristics of Ballistite B-16 and Blackpower are so dissimilar that they cannot they are not conducive to duplex loading. However Government of India accepted Colonels suggestion and this shotgun proof charge became law in India, being incorporated into the rules of proof.

During absence of Mr. A.G Harrison from Jan to May 1958 private gun manufacturers send shotguns of 14.16 and 20 gauge to Proof House. When he returned the found out those there shotguns were being altered in the chambers to accept 12 gauge cartridges, the only size available, These guns of 14,16and 20 gauges were being accepted and were proved and marked as 12 gauge guns! There was Board of Inquiry under the Proof master, It came out that the officers and staff had ordered the alternations of the gun chambers because only 12 gauge cartridges were available in the proof house. The people involved informed that they were not aware that shotguns of different gauges had different dimensions. Over 1000 of these dangerous guns were released for sale before error was discovered! :shock:

Sometime later when Proof Master was absent and when he returned he discovered another mess. he found out that Muzzle loading shotguns were being proved Nitro proof 12 gauge. When he approached authorities about this he was challenged to prove that Muzzle loading shotguns should not be proof tested for Nitro powder! Before the alternations were made over 1500 of these guns were accepted and passed to the public!!! :shock:

Then later in 1962 another officer at the Chief inspectorate of armaments came up with another alteration to Duplex load of Ballistite B-16 and Blackpowder which was worse than the first one.The 30 grain load for a 2 ¼” chamber with 130 grs Black powder and 33 grain load for a 2 3/4”
chamber with 100 grs of black powder .Higher blackpowder charge for a smaller chamber!!! These loading are incorporated in the India proof rules of 1957. :shock:

I know some people here are ardent fans of IOFs. I am sure readers can make out why I am not.
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Re: IOF shotguns

Post by cottage cheese » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:21 pm

Hey bespoke

thanks for sharing this.... information like this is hardly ever forthcoming from the establishment because of the inexplicable cloak & dagger mindset that they inculcate.

Shucks that was a promising start...but alas I didn't realize our bungling babugiri and their bedpan mechanics (in eljefe's words) already had a such head start in those early years... :twisted:

Presumably they were only bungling buffons then and not as yet the charlatans that we know today.

Brings out a cynical smile.

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cc
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Re: IOF shotguns

Post by shooter » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:04 pm

paaji tusi tope ho.
india di hope ho.

excellent write up. keep 'em coming. :cheers:
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Re: IOF shotguns

Post by goodboy_mentor » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:21 am

Is it the same unscientific method(India proof rules of 1957) being used for proofing IOF made handguns, rifles and shotguns manufactured by private companies that are being sold in market by IOF now?
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Re: IOF shotguns

Post by TwoRivers » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:56 am

Bespoke: Nice piece of research. Nitro proofing muzzle loaders may not be necessary, but it does assure that you have a very strong and safe gun. That I would consider a positive step. It would simplify things at the proof house as well.

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Re: IOF shotguns

Post by highlander9999 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:16 am

indians cant they even copy a thing like 12 bore shotgun . ithink people in peshawer are doing a better job then them ; am i right or wrong. highlander99999.

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Re: IOF shotguns

Post by goodboy_mentor » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:45 am

Indians can and are copying very well. There was a news report that excellent copies of foreign made pistols where being made in illegal factories. Maoists were also reported to be manufacturing AK 47s, SLRs, bolt action rifles, hand grenades etc. It is only the government run IOF that cannot even properly copy and clone firearms.
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Re: IOF shotguns

Post by The Doc » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:48 am

Bespoke - the resident shotgun expert ,

Thank you, I learnt some more today . While going through your write up I was wondering how did you manage to get your hands on this piece of info . I would also like to read some history about the IOF .22 rifle. Do IOF/RFI made rifles tickle your funny bone too ?

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Rp.
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Re: IOF shotguns

Post by winnie_the_pooh » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:12 pm

Bespoke,

Nice post.Infact the first on this subject that can be termed as 'informed'. Of course the urban legend of BSA made shotties is going to persist along with "aluminium bolts on .315" and the new one "Steyr made barrels on the earlier IOF 30-06 rifles.

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Re: IOF shotguns

Post by cottage cheese » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:24 pm

winnie_the_pooh wrote:Bespoke,

Nice post.Infact the first on this subject that can be termed as 'informed'. Of course the urban legend of BSA made shotties is going to persist along with "aluminium bolts on .315" and the new one "Steyr made barrels on the earlier IOF 30-06 rifles.
Not to forget the romantic spanish slant on things as well....
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Re: IOF shotguns

Post by Vikram » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:20 pm

That's the first ever post with such information and 'facts'I read on this subject. Thanks, Bespoke, for sharing this with us.

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Re: IOF shotguns

Post by eljefe » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:58 pm

+1
Keep on doin it.
For the record, I formally copyright 'bedpan mechanic'.
All have my permission to use it generously WRT the IOF
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Re: IOF shotguns

Post by lazybones » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:27 pm

Superb post Bespoke. Really enjoyed reading it and learned a lot. Thanks

Ashok

Bespoke
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Re: IOF shotguns

Post by Bespoke » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:33 am

Thanks you Folks! I am glad you enjoyed it.

Goodboy_mentor,

I am not sure what they are using for Handguns but Rifles back in days (1908 to 1950) were proofed with both Dry and oiled proof around but from 1950 to end of SMLE rifle production 1965 they only proofed them with Dry proof round when the rules mentioned proofing with both dry and oiled rounds and then came Self loading rifle commonly called SLR similar to British L1A1 in 1962 which was proved with both dry and oiled round. I am not sure what they are doing now with rifles AFAIK they are still using Indian Proof rules of 1957, these were copy of British Proof rules of 1954.

Tworivers,

I would differ with you on that point although Nitrocellouse does generate higher pressures but at same time we should not forget that smokeless powder burns and black powder explodes, since smokeless powder burns at a rate which we can alter and measure according to the requirement we cannot do same with black powder.

Doc,

I read about this few years from photocopied write-up by Mr. A.G Harrison while going through my father's gun books. I have no Idea of .22 IOF but I would like to share something about .315 one of these days when I have little more time on my hands.
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Re: IOF shotguns

Post by TwoRivers » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:17 pm

Bespoke: Differ you may. But remember, that though it is a low explosive, it cannot generate the pressures that smokeless powders do. Nitro proof will cover black powder, but not vice versa. We can alter the rate at which black powder burns/explodes by altering granulation size.

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