IOF shotguns
-
- One of Us (Nirvana)
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 9:39 pm
IOF shotguns
This morning I met a gentleman who was of the view that early IOF shotguns, which still command premium prices in India, are comparable to BSA shotguns and some of the more mediocre European guns. There are people who buy IOF shotguns with their eyes shut but I would like to present some facts about early IOF shotguns.
The production of sporting arms in India began in November of 1952 under supervision of Mr. M.N Walton who was superintendent of Rifle factory as Ishapore ,Mr. Walton suggested that and English made double barrel gun should be copied and 25 year old B.S.A shotgun was drawn from Rifle factory Museum and used as a model .The first lot of guns and barrels were complete in February 1953 and sent to London Proof house you can find a lot of dealers say that the Barrels of early IOF were imported from Britain etc which is not true ,The first lot of guns and barrels were promptly reject by London proof house for following reasons.
1) The barrels were “rivelled” meaning that the bores are very wary, thus impossible for the viewer in pre proof and after proof views to determine changes in the bores if any.
2) Chambers not to gauge
3) Action face of more than “.002”.Since guns are rejected if .002” gap appears after proof, obviously the gap cannot be accepted before the proof
4) Looseness in Action
5) The tubes sent for provisional proof were not accepted because they were chambered, hence making it impossible to fix a plug.
The guns and tubes came back to Ishapore were they were altered according to the advice of London proof Master. Then the guns were sent to Rifle factory proof house Mr. A.G Harrison was Poof Master there he again rejected them because bore diameter was less than .729” ,the bores were than lapped out to accept .729” plug gauge and returned to the proof house. The First Indian made shotguns passed proof in March 1953
Another interesting fact here is that in 1956 Col.R.Williams working in Kirkee Ammunition factory ,suggested to Government of India that large stock of Ballistite B-16 usually used for grenade cartridge ,The Duplex load of Blackpower and Ballistite B-16 could be used for definitive shotgun proofing .Mr. A.G Harrison protested on this commenting that burning and loading characteristics of Ballistite B-16 and Blackpower are so dissimilar that they cannot they are not conducive to duplex loading. However Government of India accepted Colonels suggestion and this shotgun proof charge became law in India, being incorporated into the rules of proof.
During absence of Mr. A.G Harrison from Jan to May 1958 private gun manufacturers send shotguns of 14.16 and 20 gauge to Proof House. When he returned the found out those there shotguns were being altered in the chambers to accept 12 gauge cartridges, the only size available, These guns of 14,16and 20 gauges were being accepted and were proved and marked as 12 gauge guns! There was Board of Inquiry under the Proof master, It came out that the officers and staff had ordered the alternations of the gun chambers because only 12 gauge cartridges were available in the proof house. The people involved informed that they were not aware that shotguns of different gauges had different dimensions. Over 1000 of these dangerous guns were released for sale before error was discovered!
Sometime later when Proof Master was absent and when he returned he discovered another mess. he found out that Muzzle loading shotguns were being proved Nitro proof 12 gauge. When he approached authorities about this he was challenged to prove that Muzzle loading shotguns should not be proof tested for Nitro powder! Before the alternations were made over 1500 of these guns were accepted and passed to the public!!!
Then later in 1962 another officer at the Chief inspectorate of armaments came up with another alteration to Duplex load of Ballistite B-16 and Blackpowder which was worse than the first one.The 30 grain load for a 2 ¼” chamber with 130 grs Black powder and 33 grain load for a 2 3/4”
chamber with 100 grs of black powder .Higher blackpowder charge for a smaller chamber!!! These loading are incorporated in the India proof rules of 1957.
I know some people here are ardent fans of IOFs. I am sure readers can make out why I am not.
The production of sporting arms in India began in November of 1952 under supervision of Mr. M.N Walton who was superintendent of Rifle factory as Ishapore ,Mr. Walton suggested that and English made double barrel gun should be copied and 25 year old B.S.A shotgun was drawn from Rifle factory Museum and used as a model .The first lot of guns and barrels were complete in February 1953 and sent to London Proof house you can find a lot of dealers say that the Barrels of early IOF were imported from Britain etc which is not true ,The first lot of guns and barrels were promptly reject by London proof house for following reasons.
1) The barrels were “rivelled” meaning that the bores are very wary, thus impossible for the viewer in pre proof and after proof views to determine changes in the bores if any.
2) Chambers not to gauge
3) Action face of more than “.002”.Since guns are rejected if .002” gap appears after proof, obviously the gap cannot be accepted before the proof
4) Looseness in Action
5) The tubes sent for provisional proof were not accepted because they were chambered, hence making it impossible to fix a plug.
The guns and tubes came back to Ishapore were they were altered according to the advice of London proof Master. Then the guns were sent to Rifle factory proof house Mr. A.G Harrison was Poof Master there he again rejected them because bore diameter was less than .729” ,the bores were than lapped out to accept .729” plug gauge and returned to the proof house. The First Indian made shotguns passed proof in March 1953
Another interesting fact here is that in 1956 Col.R.Williams working in Kirkee Ammunition factory ,suggested to Government of India that large stock of Ballistite B-16 usually used for grenade cartridge ,The Duplex load of Blackpower and Ballistite B-16 could be used for definitive shotgun proofing .Mr. A.G Harrison protested on this commenting that burning and loading characteristics of Ballistite B-16 and Blackpower are so dissimilar that they cannot they are not conducive to duplex loading. However Government of India accepted Colonels suggestion and this shotgun proof charge became law in India, being incorporated into the rules of proof.
During absence of Mr. A.G Harrison from Jan to May 1958 private gun manufacturers send shotguns of 14.16 and 20 gauge to Proof House. When he returned the found out those there shotguns were being altered in the chambers to accept 12 gauge cartridges, the only size available, These guns of 14,16and 20 gauges were being accepted and were proved and marked as 12 gauge guns! There was Board of Inquiry under the Proof master, It came out that the officers and staff had ordered the alternations of the gun chambers because only 12 gauge cartridges were available in the proof house. The people involved informed that they were not aware that shotguns of different gauges had different dimensions. Over 1000 of these dangerous guns were released for sale before error was discovered!
Sometime later when Proof Master was absent and when he returned he discovered another mess. he found out that Muzzle loading shotguns were being proved Nitro proof 12 gauge. When he approached authorities about this he was challenged to prove that Muzzle loading shotguns should not be proof tested for Nitro powder! Before the alternations were made over 1500 of these guns were accepted and passed to the public!!!
Then later in 1962 another officer at the Chief inspectorate of armaments came up with another alteration to Duplex load of Ballistite B-16 and Blackpowder which was worse than the first one.The 30 grain load for a 2 ¼” chamber with 130 grs Black powder and 33 grain load for a 2 3/4”
chamber with 100 grs of black powder .Higher blackpowder charge for a smaller chamber!!! These loading are incorporated in the India proof rules of 1957.
I know some people here are ardent fans of IOFs. I am sure readers can make out why I am not.
“Bravery is believing in yourself, and that thing nobody can teach you.”
-
- Veteran
- Posts: 1427
- Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:15 am
- Location: Shillong-Dimapur
Re: IOF shotguns
Hey bespoke
thanks for sharing this.... information like this is hardly ever forthcoming from the establishment because of the inexplicable cloak & dagger mindset that they inculcate.
Shucks that was a promising start...but alas I didn't realize our bungling babugiri and their bedpan mechanics (in eljefe's words) already had a such head start in those early years...
Presumably they were only bungling buffons then and not as yet the charlatans that we know today.
Brings out a cynical smile.
regards,
cc
thanks for sharing this.... information like this is hardly ever forthcoming from the establishment because of the inexplicable cloak & dagger mindset that they inculcate.
Shucks that was a promising start...but alas I didn't realize our bungling babugiri and their bedpan mechanics (in eljefe's words) already had a such head start in those early years...
Presumably they were only bungling buffons then and not as yet the charlatans that we know today.
Brings out a cynical smile.
regards,
cc
He who can not think, is a fool; he who will not, a bigot; he who dare not - a slave!
- shooter
- Old Timer
- Posts: 2002
- Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 8:55 pm
- Location: London
Re: IOF shotguns
paaji tusi tope ho.
india di hope ho.
excellent write up. keep 'em coming.
india di hope ho.
excellent write up. keep 'em coming.
You want more gun control? Use both hands!
God made man and God made woman, but Samuel Colt made them equal.
One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted. by Jose Gasset.
God made man and God made woman, but Samuel Colt made them equal.
One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted. by Jose Gasset.
-
- Old Timer
- Posts: 2928
- Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:35 pm
Re: IOF shotguns
Is it the same unscientific method(India proof rules of 1957) being used for proofing IOF made handguns, rifles and shotguns manufactured by private companies that are being sold in market by IOF now?
"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992
-
- Veteran
- Posts: 1526
- Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:11 pm
- Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Re: IOF shotguns
Bespoke: Nice piece of research. Nitro proofing muzzle loaders may not be necessary, but it does assure that you have a very strong and safe gun. That I would consider a positive step. It would simplify things at the proof house as well.
-
- Learning the ropes
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:17 am
- Location: chandigarh
Re: IOF shotguns
indians cant they even copy a thing like 12 bore shotgun . ithink people in peshawer are doing a better job then them ; am i right or wrong. highlander99999.
-
- Old Timer
- Posts: 2928
- Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:35 pm
Re: IOF shotguns
Indians can and are copying very well. There was a news report that excellent copies of foreign made pistols where being made in illegal factories. Maoists were also reported to be manufacturing AK 47s, SLRs, bolt action rifles, hand grenades etc. It is only the government run IOF that cannot even properly copy and clone firearms.
"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992
- The Doc
- Veteran
- Posts: 1253
- Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:25 am
- Location: India.
Re: IOF shotguns
Bespoke - the resident shotgun expert ,
Thank you, I learnt some more today . While going through your write up I was wondering how did you manage to get your hands on this piece of info . I would also like to read some history about the IOF .22 rifle. Do IOF/RFI made rifles tickle your funny bone too ?
best,
Rp.
Thank you, I learnt some more today . While going through your write up I was wondering how did you manage to get your hands on this piece of info . I would also like to read some history about the IOF .22 rifle. Do IOF/RFI made rifles tickle your funny bone too ?
best,
Rp.
It's always better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it !
-
- Veteran
- Posts: 1767
- Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:49 pm
Re: IOF shotguns
Bespoke,
Nice post.Infact the first on this subject that can be termed as 'informed'. Of course the urban legend of BSA made shotties is going to persist along with "aluminium bolts on .315" and the new one "Steyr made barrels on the earlier IOF 30-06 rifles.
Nice post.Infact the first on this subject that can be termed as 'informed'. Of course the urban legend of BSA made shotties is going to persist along with "aluminium bolts on .315" and the new one "Steyr made barrels on the earlier IOF 30-06 rifles.
-
- Veteran
- Posts: 1427
- Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:15 am
- Location: Shillong-Dimapur
Re: IOF shotguns
Not to forget the romantic spanish slant on things as well....winnie_the_pooh wrote:Bespoke,
Nice post.Infact the first on this subject that can be termed as 'informed'. Of course the urban legend of BSA made shotties is going to persist along with "aluminium bolts on .315" and the new one "Steyr made barrels on the earlier IOF 30-06 rifles.
He who can not think, is a fool; he who will not, a bigot; he who dare not - a slave!
- Vikram
- We post a lot
- Posts: 5107
- Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:14 am
- Location: Tbilisi,Georgia
Re: IOF shotguns
That's the first ever post with such information and 'facts'I read on this subject. Thanks, Bespoke, for sharing this with us.
Best-
Vikram
Best-
Vikram
It ain’t over ’til it’s over! "Rocky,Rocky,Rocky....."
- eljefe
- Old Timer
- Posts: 2871
- Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:37 am
Re: IOF shotguns
+1
Keep on doin it.
For the record, I formally copyright 'bedpan mechanic'.
All have my permission to use it generously WRT the IOF
Keep on doin it.
For the record, I formally copyright 'bedpan mechanic'.
All have my permission to use it generously WRT the IOF
''It dont mean a thing, if it aint got that zing!''
"...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..."
"...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..."
-
- One of Us (Nirvana)
- Posts: 324
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:18 pm
- Location: bangalore
Re: IOF shotguns
Superb post Bespoke. Really enjoyed reading it and learned a lot. Thanks
Ashok
Ashok
-
- One of Us (Nirvana)
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 9:39 pm
Re: IOF shotguns
Thanks you Folks! I am glad you enjoyed it.
Goodboy_mentor,
I am not sure what they are using for Handguns but Rifles back in days (1908 to 1950) were proofed with both Dry and oiled proof around but from 1950 to end of SMLE rifle production 1965 they only proofed them with Dry proof round when the rules mentioned proofing with both dry and oiled rounds and then came Self loading rifle commonly called SLR similar to British L1A1 in 1962 which was proved with both dry and oiled round. I am not sure what they are doing now with rifles AFAIK they are still using Indian Proof rules of 1957, these were copy of British Proof rules of 1954.
Tworivers,
I would differ with you on that point although Nitrocellouse does generate higher pressures but at same time we should not forget that smokeless powder burns and black powder explodes, since smokeless powder burns at a rate which we can alter and measure according to the requirement we cannot do same with black powder.
Doc,
I read about this few years from photocopied write-up by Mr. A.G Harrison while going through my father's gun books. I have no Idea of .22 IOF but I would like to share something about .315 one of these days when I have little more time on my hands.
Goodboy_mentor,
I am not sure what they are using for Handguns but Rifles back in days (1908 to 1950) were proofed with both Dry and oiled proof around but from 1950 to end of SMLE rifle production 1965 they only proofed them with Dry proof round when the rules mentioned proofing with both dry and oiled rounds and then came Self loading rifle commonly called SLR similar to British L1A1 in 1962 which was proved with both dry and oiled round. I am not sure what they are doing now with rifles AFAIK they are still using Indian Proof rules of 1957, these were copy of British Proof rules of 1954.
Tworivers,
I would differ with you on that point although Nitrocellouse does generate higher pressures but at same time we should not forget that smokeless powder burns and black powder explodes, since smokeless powder burns at a rate which we can alter and measure according to the requirement we cannot do same with black powder.
Doc,
I read about this few years from photocopied write-up by Mr. A.G Harrison while going through my father's gun books. I have no Idea of .22 IOF but I would like to share something about .315 one of these days when I have little more time on my hands.
“Bravery is believing in yourself, and that thing nobody can teach you.”
-
- Veteran
- Posts: 1526
- Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:11 pm
- Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Re: IOF shotguns
Bespoke: Differ you may. But remember, that though it is a low explosive, it cannot generate the pressures that smokeless powders do. Nitro proof will cover black powder, but not vice versa. We can alter the rate at which black powder burns/explodes by altering granulation size.