Indians For Guns

Hi Ppl,

I have shot many S*S till date, mostly desi barring one which was a foreign make. Everybody including most of the experts say that they point very naturally and easier to shoot. I never shot any O/U so I can not compare. What our Guru’s here think?

And why all target shooters use O/U. Is there a special reason for that or is it because some Olympic guidelines which obviously I don't know.

Thanks in advance

-Inder

Kanwar76:

SXS are excellent for upland game hunting, especially the better quality ones. A bit easier to reload too, as barrels are higher at the breech, versus the O/U's lower barrel being slighty inaccessible.

The SXS habit("Bhoot") is hard to get rid of. I for one kept owning a SXS till 1988, almost 8 years after coming to the US.

Once I got into Trap, the broad sighting plane was a big handicap, had to buy a Rem 870 pump immediately. Before going on to O/U.

To be brief, narrow sighting plane, excellent side and under visibility, straight recoil from the O/U's lower barrel if fired first making second shots easier in skeet/Trap doubles. And a balance on par with the SXS once you get used to holding the O/U, versus the SXS kinda sitting in the front hand (Hard to explain this one, have to feel this). All these make the O/U an excellent choice for the Target Shooter.

Also Browning type O/U's seem to keep a persons head higher, some people like this. I don't, since I don't like seeing the rib too much, that is why I switched over to Beretta, originally I had a Browning Citori.

However once you start shooting the O/U, after a couple of years you do not wanna look at the SXS, my opinion for hunting even. Autoloaders, the nicely balanced ones (Benelli is one)if cared for properly are a nice and affordable alternative to the O/U.

Hope I answered your query, am in a bitta rush.

Satpal

PS: decades ago SXS used to be used for trap/skeet extensively, have heard of it, never seen anybody shoot them in competition ever.

Inder,

By the time you're back here, I'll have both SxS and U/O guns for you to try. Shoot both and decide for yourself which one you like better. That is a better option than theory from someone who is now going to claim better shooting skills than George Digweed.

BTW, one of the best shotgunmakers for non hunting applications, Ljutic, made a SxS gun called the Space Gun for trap use but had to discontinue it because of it's cost. I know of one which is with a now retired shooter in Wisconsin. It is not very different from the custom that you saw at the club.

Cheers!

Each has its own advantages/disadvantages: Side by Sides benefit from being able to be made lighter in weight and have a very low profile allowing them to sit lower in the hand. The combination allows for good, fast handling and pointing. As has been said, loading is easier than with ( the lower barrel ) of an O/U. The disadvantage is mainly that the wide, irregular sighting plane obstructs vision.
Over Unders have the main benefit of a narrow and regular sighting plane which allows for better lateral vision and easier target acquisition. Both barrels being immediately below the rib and in the same plane is also a benefit. The disadvantages are increased weight and a higher profile, neither of which aids handling or pointability.
In competition the O/Us disadvantages are offset by the fact that extremely fast handling is not necessary and the extra weight is of benefit as it provides for a steadier gun. Coupled with the better sighting plane and lateral visibility the O/Us advantages are obvious.
The oft quoted advantage of the O/Us lower barrel straight line recoil is of little benefit in practice - fit a Side by Side with a Trap stock and it is impossible to discern any increased recoil compared to a O/U.
Until comparatively recently O/Us were not popular - particularly in the UK - for wing shooting because of their slow handling and greater weight however O/U game guns have improved greatly......mostly due to low profile actions and far better game type stock designs - particularly the Guerrini designs used by B.R.Rizzini and Caesar Guerrini. Lightweight alloy receivers are now available - mostly pioneered by Fabarm. The other boost to the use of O/U bird guns is the increasing popularity of the 20-Bore because a low profile, small action 20-Bore is a similar weight to a 12-bore Side by Side, the profile is only a little higher and the weight very similar.
One other benefit of the Side by Side guns is their lack of susceptibility to side winds. Not something that I was aware of until a few years ago when I reviewed a couple of O/U guns for a magazine in near gale conditions. One gun with a solid inter-barrel rib was noticably affected by the wind. The other, which was open between the barrels was barely affected at all and was very similar to a Side by Side in the conditions.
ISSF Trap and Skeet regulations allow the use of O/Us, SxSs, semi-autos or pump actions however you will never see the use of the latter two types in international competition for various reasons......not the least of which is poor handling, poor balance and the fact that the forward hand has to move with a pump action to eject and chamber a cartridge. There are a couple of exceptions - the Cosmi semi-auto has very good balance but is only made as a game gun, is very expensive and the use of semi-autos is distinctly frowned upon for driven bird shooting in the UK. The Beretta UGB25 Xcel DOES handle much better than any other competition semi-auto but although it was announced with a huge fanfare a couple of years ago the take-up has been very poor.....to the extent that Berettas UK distributors don`t even bother to import it any more. One other major disadvantage of semi-autos and pump actions is that the choke used for the second shot necesarily has to be the same as the first.
In the US there are dedicated competition classes for SxSs, semi-autos and pumps. In the UK there are usually Gamekeepers competitions at agricultural shows and most of the Keepers use SxSs.......and very effectively.
I once had a Winchester 23 SxS Trap gun........a horrible thing and immensely heavy. Live Pigeon ( the early form of Trap shooting ) guns are quite commonly encountered in the UK and I have a couple currently - one a W.R.Pape dating from 1879. Live Pigeon guns make good wildfowling ( Geese and Duck ) guns and are quite desirable.

Grumpy,

You didn't mention Beretta or Browning in your post. Now there are going to be questions about what guns you have shot or held and another explanation of how a self appointed expert in guns acquired this expertise from his fourth IPO.

This is OT but has any firm been able to beat the ultra low Caprinus U/O profile of 2.2" in 12 bore? I understand that Caprinus were the first company to produce a lower profile U/O than the Woodward design though by then the Woodward company had been bombed out for some years and become little more than a name...

Cheers!

There are distinct reasons why I haven`t mentioned either Beretta or Browning guns in a game context. The Beretta O/Us have a nice, low profile design but until recently their wing shooting type guns have had pretty poor stock designs. Brownings have had good game shooting stock designs but the action profile is rather high. In practice this hasn`t prevented many people using Brownings very effectively in both game shooting and competition. Battista Rizzini was the first high volume manufacturer to offer the combination of a low profile action and good wing shooting stock which has a very shallow Prince of Wales grip. B.Rizzini, Fabarm and Caesar Guerrini all now offer game O/Us with lightweight alloy actions. I`ll leave you to figure out the common denominator between those three manufacturers.................
The lowest profile O/U action that I know of is another French gun, Bretton Gauchers Baby Bretton and Fair Play models. They achieve the very low action by having the barrels slide open on two rods rather than hinge open. In practice the lowest profile possible is limited by the diameters of the two breeches mounted above each other so can never be as low as a SxS ...... and as far as I know the lowest profile SxS was yet another French gun, the Darne, which also used a slide action.
A few years ago I handled a prototype O/U with a slide and tilt action......and that was French as well !
There isn`t much that I haven`t either shot, owned, sold, handled or reviewed......I haven`t got hold of the new Winchesters or Remingtons, the CGC RBL, a single barrel Ljutic or the Boss Robertson. I haven`t got my hands on any shotguns made by IOF, Shaktiman or that Pakistani manufacturer or some rifles made by American custom or semi-custom manufacturers. There must be others but I can`t think of them off-hand.

Or a Fabbri or Fr. il. Rizzini - that`s the $100,000 type Rizzini, not the F.A.I.R.s

Thanks a lot Guru Ji...

Great explanation as always...its started to make sense now....

-Inder

Inder,
I have seen cadets of NCC ( Air wing) regularly use Indian made SxS for their skeet.They shoot rounds of 7 birds and many do pretty well at it...5-6 out of 7...
Clay shooting was an arcane skill to me-lack of exposure and training and obviously equipment.
Been using doubles for clays(the few times I've been shotgunning) and the few guys who walked in with O/U were eyed enviously-Baikal or Browning!
Have used a Browning Citori O/U and it was , well different.Hard to define,but I think the swing was faster and smoother??

A Rem 100 auto kept stove piping the Indian shells(all i could afford as a gun crazy teen!), it was fun,though.
In this day and age of restrictive gunownership in India, you're getting a lot of exposure, , suggest you make the best use of it.Lets hope to see you in the national shotgunning news ??
Best
Axx


Now lets not go OT and get back to skid shooting guys!

I haven`t got my hands on any shotguns made by IOF, Shaktiman

IOF stuff is just ok.But Shaktiman Tired of your life Grumpy

penpusher

Inder, Its an age old question everyone has. Satpal, Mehul and Grumpy have given excellent answers, Simple and cliched answer is, they're "different", "Alag hai". I like both, my cheapo Winchester 24 swings and shoots great, I liked my Citori and now really like my Beretta 682, broke 94 once, that's the best I can do yet). My twisted answer is that men invented them both just to have more types of toys to play with.

Remember an incident just because my family had guns. As a kid I considered myself as mister know it all on guns and ammo. Had never seen or heard of o/u. My cousin was taken to a vulture/kite/partridge shoot on IAF air base. They used to do that as a part of exercise to exterminate big birds nesting on trees/brush surrounding base and to minimize low flying airplane hits. He came back and narrated a story on o/u shotgun which belonged to son in law of Air force chief. I berated him there is none other than sxs, lost the bet and my title. Till date he rubs it in…never recovered the mantle again.

Grumpy,

Thanks for this explanation. Aren't the Baby Brettons just 4 1/2 lbs in weight or something similarly light? Must be hell to shoot with anything other than ultra light loads!

As far as your experience is concerned, there are few people who are happier to acknowledge it in public than I am. And it is a matter of pride for me as I can honestly claim that I invited you here as my friend.

Thanks again and cheers!

Yes. the Baby Bretton has both the receiver and barrels made of some form of alloy and weighs 2.2-2.3 kg depending on barrel length. I had one.....briefly. Recoil is stiff - to put it mildly !

Kanwar76:

The Pundits having laid down their fancy theories.

Time for a dose of reality.

In the Indian context: Lucky to get a licence, after that any reliable SXS has to do. Good imported O/U's very hard to get. Even the lowly but great shooting Remington 870 commands a hefty premium.

In the American context. Start with an Remington 870 Express 12 gauge with synthetic stock. Use it for everything hunting, trap, home defence, deer with extra barrel etc.etc.. This is one gun to own if one can have only one.

Moving on up go to a large dealer see what brands he stocks and sells in volume. Mostly it is Remington, Browning, Beretta, Benelli in the quality brands. Try them and see what fits you best, swing, weight, heft, pointabilty etc.. A bad fitting gun is a curse.

Try different barrel lengths of the same model that fits best. Note down your selection, do not buy.

In America guns take a heavy depreciation when bought new and moreover a new gun might fit you well in the store and not shoot where you want it to. Thereby necessiating extra expenditure on stock modifications/offset shooting chokes/shims etc..

So start looking for the selected model at your gun club, once found, pattern and shoot a few rounds of Trap/Skeet before buying.

Bargain very hard as most gunowners are very anxious to get rid of their old guns to buy new ones. Dealers rarely give them 50% on trade, so give them 55-60% of new at max(Excellent or better condition).

Why buy a popular and current model. One reason ease of repairs. On old/not very popular guns repairs if needed will bankrupt you, accessories too are hard to get.

Re: O/U versus the S/S, the O/U rules in America both for Competition and Hunting. The American Gun market is at least 50 times larger than the English market for guns. American prefer the O/U. So most makers have refined the O/U to a degree that it points/balances as good as a SXS in 20 gauge for hunting. Even for hunting well made 12 gauge O/U's are almost as good as SXS. In 12 gauge competition guns the O/U rocks. Just go to any range count the # of O/U's versus the occasional SXS.

Re:The autoloader:If properly cared for the short recoil action guns like the Benelli are awesome to handle/easy to clean and comparatively inexpensive. Being single barrels they work for deer too. I don't even mind their not having two chokes/Some people do.

Ultimately neither the best gun/Ammo wins. It is the dedicated shooter with whatsoever works best for him, wins in competition. In hunting the dedicated outdoorsman with superior knowledge of the game gets the bird!!!

Think and meditate, Yogis/Sufis(Practitioners) go to heaven, Pandits/Mullahs only know their holy books(Theory) and fight with each other!!!

Good luck shooting!!

SP

PS:Re. Mehul--Hang around him he has been very good to you and is a good guy. This is despite, our war of the Gun Classes. Best Grade Versus Good Production Grade.