Indian made Under Over Guns for shooters .

[The Doc]

there is a lot more to the process than meets the eye and mind of those who have not done it before

there is a lot more to designing and manufactoring a gun than meets the eye, especially on the safety side, steel quality and design strenght dont come without a price, neither does gunmaker expertice as it has taken a few of us quite a few years or half lifetimes to get this right.

the only thing i allways worry about is safety, especially client safety

+1

[varun.bhargav]

Hey

Thanks for the concern guys .

@Peter:- You are right safety is important . Now for that first we have to look as what are the reasons because of which a barell bursts . The Chamber is the most important part in a gun Barell . Almost 90% of the pressure is put on the chamber part . To take care of this we make double chamber guns . In the end it gives us a light weight gun with a good chamber . The steel recomended for barell is mostly EN-19 because of its strength . Taking a MS or an En-19 adds only a few hundreds on the cost of the gun but the only problem with EN-19 is that it has to be annealed so that tools can work on it . So there is a lot many processes that can be done to make the steel good for use but that requires some extra machinery and a very good techincal know how . As for the design its the most simplest design in a Gun . The ID and OD both are of statndard sizes and there is a lot of margin available in that too . And i have been manufacturing guns for Last 50 years . My Gun Sr. No. has crossed the 50,000 mark and thats the second highest in India after Bharat Small Arms Pvt. Ltd . 50000 customers have used my guns . And also We have proff test house in India run by Indian Ordinance Factory . We get all our Barrells checked by them . If there is some fault in it we get that gun as failed and we cant sell it in market . My concern is mostly with the Body and the action . Safety is a small issue for that part . Its just the design and the craftmen ship that makes a Good gun . Ur Parts must be of good steel . Sizes must be as per design . So this is my main concern now . I am making good barells and also trying to improve it . I have ordered a Gun drilling Machine photo of which i have posted here only and a Honing machine . Looking for a Turning centre with follow rib but not getting sucess in the same .

[peterdk]

@Varun

having some small expirence in the manufactoring of guns and rifles, i respectfully disagree with you on this subject.

barrel bursts are such a small small incident in this day and age that we rarly take that into account, and in europe we use proof houses for this as well, so no argument there.

My concern is mostly with the Body and the action . Safety is a small issue for that part . Its just the design and the craftmen ship that makes a Good gun

Now this is what is worring me more than anything, this is just not true, i can(BUT DON'T) make guns that will go through proof without a problem, but after a few hundred shots they will catastroficlly fail with the action cracking and the guns coming off face and even bursting back through the face of the gun and shooter, that is why i asked you to go to one of the major houses in europe and get some training before you chose to designing a new action, i do whish you success in your endavors, i just care more for your potential costumers than you apparently do.

it sounds like you have made many guns, are your costumers happy with the service they get ? what about failures etc. we all have them eventually but it is how you deal with them that makes you a gunmaker or just a merchant.

i have never seen your current product, could you please show me a few pictures of them ?

I am not trying to pick a fight, but just trying to say that there is more to gunmaking than just get a couppel of steel tubes and slapping them on a square piece of steel, with a piece of wood to complete it.

Best regards

peter

[OverUnderPump]

it is how you deal with them that makes you a gunmaker or just a merchant.

Couldn't have said it better.

Its a great initiative on the part of Varun though to solicit feedback and best practices from the shooting community. I hope something good comes out of this endeavor.

regards

OUP

[bandukbhandar]

Mr Varun Bhargav has been trying for collaboration and has put such postings on other networking forums in past.

When he is not ready to take the responsibility of the goods supplied by his firm Bhargav arms co. and passing the buck saying the guns are made by my uncle and not me.

It's just like saying that suppose there is a problem in a car of TATA and then Mr. Ratan Tata says that he did not make the car, it was done by his engineers.

Members of IFG should please ask him who will finalise the collaboration and has he got permission form his uncle.

I have been informed that still his name has not been endorsed on the manufacturing licence of Bhargav arms co.

Also we should ask him, what does Greener in his name V.B. Greener stands for. and what does DAVA stands for.

Kezar Husen Bandukwala

[eljefe]

I read with interest ,the viewpoints of two diametrically opposite, talented persons.Varun's company has manufactured thousands of shotguns, per Indian standards, while Peter has the luxury of knowing (at a workman's level) about the latest as well as the traditional approaches of the gun making industry(bespoke included)
While doing an apprenticeship with someone like H&H or Purdy would be the stuff of dreams, can a person involved in day to day business actually do this? so, it would be an acceptable alternative, to enrol some help-yup, Spanish and Turkish gunmakers are world class-means, quality is accepted pretty much all over, steady sales. My perception of the term " world class" (Though I despise that term a fair bit,having had a surfeit of it forced down my throat in a previous avatar-world class hospitals, lassi, gol guppas,typing institutes, MBA Parlours-you name it ) not necessarily bespoke.
But a damned sight better than the POS available in the Indian markets. If one maker takes the time, effort and initiative to offer international quality- its a captive market for him and suddenly, the days of badly manufactured 'hatoda's' will be past.We wont need to pay Lakhs for a battered 12 bore s/s-just because its 'ENGLISH ' made, and hopefully, should have reason to pay more than a 'hockey stick hatoda' for a technologically superior shotgun...

[cottage cheese]

Now this is what is worring me more than anything, this is just not true, i can(BUT DON'T) make guns that will go through proof without a problem, but after a few hundred shots they will catastroficlly fail with the action cracking and the guns coming off face and even bursting back through the face of the gun and shooter,

Peter you have a point there and for objectivity, allow me to add one perspective that's unique to the Indian scenario.

A thumping majority of firearms licenses in India are issued with the 25-50 quota. That is, one can purchase/possess only 25 shots of the appropriate ammo at any one time, and a maximum limit of 50 shots per year. It is not defined in the Arms Act 1959 or Arms Rules 1962 but has become convention by some skewed dimwitted bureaucratic logic.

What this means is that most guns in India are not fired as much as they would be in other less restrictive places. This would also mean very few guns in India are really put to the rigors of thousands of rounds like their overseas counterparts. Obviously, this hides the lurking problems of durability of the firearms in question. It could also explain the curious absence of acute consumer complaints. With the lack of consumer feedback/complaints it would probably have been be assumed by manufacturers and proofing authorities that all is well.

As you rightly mentioned, a gun can pass proof and yet still lack durability.

I seriously doubt any Indian made firearm currently made (including IOFs ironmongery) would hold up for any reasonable period of time in a serious shooting overseas market.

regards,
cc

[varun.bhargav]

@ bandookwala :- Sir You are getting me wrong . First of all I am taking all the resposiblities for the past and present and future . Please dont get me wrong and find me rude you always deviate the topic . I have started this thread to ask the forum as in what kind of U/o guns they like as i am trying to develop one by putting a huge investment on it and no started this thread to ask what i was making in past . I never said i make guns of very high quality and of international standards . And The bhargav Arms Company are not working like it was working 2 years back . We did it coz we didnt to have a similar story like Mehar singh and Khurmi Gun works . So we divided ourselves in terms on manufacturing . Soon u will see three diffrenet firms under three different names . For the past any gun made any customer who has bought my gun can bring the gun to my premises . If he has taken guns from my retail outlet i will repair any mechincal fault free of charge irrispective of the time . If someone has taken my gun from any of my dealer then in between 2 years if there is any complaint i will repair that also. Even after that he can bring it and i will only charge him for the labour . If he cant come he can send me the gun through Form VII and have a talk with me . Why i am getting irritated is coz you deveiate the topic . Its my humble request lets stick to the topic and not deviate like it happened before . My personal experience is just 4 years in the trade and in that also my manufacturing experience is 2 years . I am having my dad with me Mr.Amar Nath Bhargav who is carrying an experience of 40 years in this industry now . He is one of the few persons in the industry who is sound Legally and Technically . You are one of the most experineced member in this trade . Instead of pin pointing what wrongs have been done in past i will apprciate some help from your side . If i was rude at any point my humble appologies .

-- Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:55 pm --

@cottage :- You are right on this part . But U/o guns are used by Shooters so they have to be durable . Here we are not talking about normal citizens of Indian having 25-50 quota . We are talking about shooters and if we want standards we have to make things more durable .
@pete :- I agree with all your points but to take a techincal course now is not possible for me . There is a college in austria which i enquired gives training for 4 years and is the best . I am 26 years old and the eldest son in the family and the First one to join family business. So i leave my dad will be left alone so i cant do that . Secondly i believe in the Theory that Its Better to Try and Fail then not trying at all . My dad and i am very positive this time and do want to come up with something good. I havent started this post as a marketing strategy but i am here to ask for suggestions and help that u can provide.

[peterdk]

="varun.bhargav@pete :- I agree with all your points but to take a techincal course now is not possible for me . There is a college in austria which i enquired gives training for 4 years and is the best . I am 26 years old and the eldest son in the family and the First one to join family business. So i leave my dad will be left alone so i cant do that . Secondly i believe in the Theory that Its Better to Try and Fail then not trying at all . My dad and i am very positive this time and do want to come up with something good. I havent started this post as a marketing strategy but i am here to ask for suggestions and help that u can provide.

Varun

then you just have the expensive solution left, which is hiring in a skilled and expirenced gunmaker/designer( we usually cost around 2000,- euro pr day) with expirence from a former job reengineering a allready excisting action or making a new solution for your needs. last time i was involved in reengineering a allready excisting action the cost for the prototype alone were very expencive, actually the prototypes for my C-class Double rifle which is a standard A&D action has cost me north of 50.000,-GB£, after this is done you have to crash test them, this is especially importent on a new design, this usually means running 10-15.000 high pressure shots through them, to make sure that your design dont have hidden flaws.

the theory that it is better to try and fail, is not a valid or apporiate theory in this line of work, because your fails and shortcomings can hurt injure and kill your client.

If your family belive enough in this project and can afford it, PM me and i will try to put you in contact with a few people that can help you, just remember that help in this case is payed for because the knowlegde is hard to aquire and not dealt out over Forums.

best

Peter

P.S next time you think about safety, the term is Backtrust, and it is the most importent force on an action, not radial pressure that occure in the chamber.

[eljefe]

Peter is a good investment,Bhargav.Go for it .

[peterdk]

Peter is a good investment,Bhargav.Go for it .

thank you for the vote of confidence Eljefe, sadly i were not offering myself as i am in the early stages of helping another indian gentleman with his project, i am sure that his guns will be magnificent when we are done. please remember that i also have my own brand to take care of, so i only do this in the down time while my double rifles are at the engraver etc.

what i offered was to possibly set varun and his family in tuch with somebody who actually could make such a project happen, without injury or death to the costumers as part of the process , we are actually not that many out here that can make the whole process work smoothly.

best regards

peter

[grewal]

i am in the early stages of helping another indian gentleman with his project, i am sure that his guns will be magnificent when we are done.

Please enlighten us about this product / project

[peterdk]

i am in the early stages of helping another indian gentleman with his project, i am sure that his guns will be magnificent when we are done.

Please enlighten us about this product / project

i am sorry sir, that is not my place to say, i am sure that in good time my client will reveal everything proudly

best regards

peter

[Bespoke]

There you are!!

Welcome Peter..I think you and the Indian gentleman would be a great team

[peterdk]

thank you bespoke

yes i finially made it over here, and i am quite positive that i will be abel to be of great assistance to the gentleman and the indian shooting community.

quick question for all of you out there, do you think there is a market for high end shotguns as well as for a decent priced european quality O/U, i am talking about sidelock ejector O/U's with all the trimmings, this is just a personal thing as i like to bring the top of the craft with me where i go, so what do you think ?

best

peter