Pakistani company builds a sidelock self opening shotgun

[mehulkamdar]

Quote[Of course I am all for it. These forums would be meaningless if we can't put across our points like adults & in the process, maybe influence the IOFs to mend their ways.]End quote

Response: Putting points across like adults implies thinking them through first. In any case, if you are all for the IOF improving it's products, you are one among a very large group that includes everyone here.

Quote[The patriotism factor or the lack of it has come nowhere in play.] End quote

Response: Your own earlier post talks of anti India activity. It has been amde clear to you that the edit of that post had nothing whatsoever to do with the poster's patriotism or with his pro or anti Indian-ness. If you found a post that you did not understand anti Indian, I must refer you to your own statement about discussing matters like an adult above.

Quote[The freedom of expression of one's thoughts, should not be extended to the act of promoting or implying, in any way, that u are a citizen if India just because u have not been allowed to switch sides.] End quote

Response: This is pure, undiluted BS. There are several members here who could become citizens of any country that we choose to including the countries that we live in and yet we retain our Indian passports. Sour grapes, perhaps, on your behalf?

Quote[If anything else is implied, the poster has to specify it. I might have misunderstood the comments.]End quote

Response: Not "might have." You did. And your remarks about something that you did not understand were completely unwarranted and as ridiculous as your remarks about citizenship as above. And you talk about discussing issues like an adult...

Quote[The IOFs just like the HALs have a lot to contribute towards the losses suffered by our men in uniform & it should be condemned.] End quote

Response: Glad that you feel this way. In fact, every member here, including friends from other countries agree on this point.

Quote[Pls. do not read my earlier post out of context.
It was a hypothetical "if & then" statement, that stated a situation, which stands negated by the arguments posted by other members in the subsequent posts.] End quote

Response: If this is an acceptance that your earlier post was nonsense, glad that you have accepted it. That said, your attitude still does not reflect an "adult" discussion, something that you have been calling for.

Quote (from an earlier post)[Having served as a second-generation defence officer, I do not further wish to prove my credentials.] End quote

Response: Yeah, and I'm Osama Bin Laden grandmother in drag.

[Kshatriya]

Mehul, the sarcastic comments sure are unwarranted.I had got the impression that the post that created all this commotion was implying to divisiveness of this country.Now that I look back, it would have been a better option to PM the poster & clarify it with him rather can commenting on it on the forums.
Most of u did not get it at that time & some still do not get it.Maybe I was seeing a bit too much in that post, where there was none.
Anyways I'm off this topic, & on second thoughts, Mehul, try reasoning with a person, rather that attacking him personally.It is the sort of thing wimps & halfwits do, since I did not make any personal comments about you, in the first place.

[mehulkamdar]

Kshatriya,

This is going to be my last post on this subject because carrying on any further would be a waste of bandwidth and also not be in line with the purpose and spirit of this forum - the idea here is for Indians to discuss and enjoy guns and shooting and to voice our feelings about matters related to this topic. If we weren't concerned about guns, we would not be here. And, we have friends from other countries who share our love for this sport, for India and who spend much time giving valuable advice to those of us who need it.

Your posts are totally off track. First you talk of anti Indian activity - there was none. And then there is a snide remark about the citizenship that some of us hold. If you can dish it out, be ready to take it without whining when there is a response.

Speaking of wimps and halfwits, yes, thanks for the commendably intellectual display you have put up here, talking about something that you know nothing about, as you have yourself accepted, and then following it up with even more BS. Well, it is the internet, and it is a poseur's paradise. Second generation defence officer - yeah. (The yeah being a loud belly laugh to follow up on your wimp and halfwit comment )

Mehul Kamdar

[monty3006]

Back to the paki guns every one .... how can we be sure that these are great performing guns and not just really well taken and photoshopped pictures?.

If any professional photographer in Mumbai photographs the Munger guns or the IOF guns or the other indian made guns then I guess They would also look this good. The performance in the field is another matter altogether.

Monish.

[mundaire]

Even if someone has handled them... don't think any Indians (resident in India) - at least those in their right mind - would rush to relate their experience(s)...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[penpusher]

I have handled a Paki made .32 revolver that had been alloted to an Air Force officer.It was a copy of the Webley, but probably on the .38 frame as it was a 7 shot.It was better made than the IOF,the over all fit was also better .The finish was however marred by deep scratches made to eliminate the Paki marking, done before allotment by the chaps at Jabalpur.The trigger pull was however as atrocious as the IOF garbage.

Maybe this might help you all to form some idea of the quality of the Paki guns.Another thing to keep in mind is that these guns have to compete with foreign brands,that are easily available in Pak.

Take care,
penpusher

[mehulkamdar]

Back to the paki guns every one .... how can we be sure that these are great performing guns and not just really well taken and photoshoped pictures?.
Monish.

The guns have been reviewed by a leading US magazine (Shotgun World, I think) and found to be excellent. They have also been reviewed in a Finnish hunting magazine - where I got the details from. The FInns know their guns and they gave these shotguns straight As.

There isn't much the Pakistanis could go wrong with - these are replicas of British designs made in their country. No, you can't expect Purdey quality, but then you can;t get a brand new Purdey matchging pair for $ 3500 either. The tragedy is that India is not beating them in this business. Cricket isn't the only game in which to beat them on the field...

[Sakobav]

In late 80s saw a G3 with Police officer guard in India and he remarked it handeled better than Indian LA1 SLR. and
Remember one thing, Pakistan Ordanance factory provides weapons and guns to their defense forces. Defense forces run that nation and hence get the pick of litter and best for themselves. Not relevant but from wikipedia regarding Indian SLR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Rifle
Designated the 1A SLR (Self Loading Rifle), Indian-made FALs were roughly based on the British L1A1, but the measurements match neither the FN nor the British made weapons. The 1A SLR, officially adopted by India in 1962, was an unlicensed version of the FAL, and this caused some difficulties with FN, as India refused to properly license its manufacture. It has been the mainstay rifle of the Indian Army for almost 45 years, and first saw combat use during the 1965 war with Pakistan. The variant manufactured in India is restricted to semi-automatic fire.

[mehulkamdar]

Navdeep,

There were complaints among the British soldiers who served in Northern Ireland that the FAL was too long and unwieldy especially in the confined urban combat type scenario that they faced there. That said, the FAL was a superbly accurate semi automatic rifle and it probably does not have a peer in this role even today.

I have handled the G3 and with it's shorter barrel, it does handle somewhat better than the FAL/SLRs I have handled and shot, but I am no soldier who has to live with his rifle day after day and my views are definitely not expert ones. In the US, as you are undoubtedly aware, Belgian made FALs used to be sold in both the regular as well as heavy barreled versions for a long time and are still available on websites like Gunsamerica and Gunbroker. Also, Brazil still manufactures it's variant of the FAL and they are still sold here brand new. New Ypork has restrictions on these guns but they can certainly be bought in most of the rest of the US for target shooting especially in the military style matches.

But we are digressing here - I think that quotas or not, there is a demand for guns in India, and, because shotguns are the type of gun for which licenses are available to most Indian shooters, I am ashamed that the Pakistanis have beaten India in quality. I remember, when I was a boy during the license-permit era, you had to wait for 7 years to take delivery of a Bajaj Vespa scooter. For a Lambretta, you had to wait 3 years. The Socialist crap of those years has gone with Indira and Rajiv Gandhi to the grave. Sadly, the ghost of the two most anti freedom politicians in Indian history hovers above the Indian arms industry. I do not, for a moment, believe that Indians cannot produce superb guns if they are allowed to. It is the denial of this freedom that I am protesting here - when someone is not allowed to achieve excellence in a field of endeavour, there is something very wrong with the system that prevents this from happening. It is sad that law abiding Indian shooters have to put up with crap not just from the licensing authorities, they have to put up with more crap from the Indian firearms manufacturing sector after they surmount horrendous obstacles in order to legally own guns.

Best wishes,

Mehul

[mundaire]

It is sad that law abiding Indian shooters have to put up with crap not just from the licensing authorities, they have to put up with more crap from the Indian firearms manufacturing sector after they surmount horrendous obstacles in order to legally own guns.

.... not to mention the horrible quality and limited types of ammunition availible here... corrosive powder and primers, bullets that consistently loose their core on impact, frequent misfires, inconsistent dimensions etc. etc.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[monty3006]

"I have handled a Paki made .32 revolver that had been alloted to an Air Force officer.It was a copy of the Webley, but probably on the .38 frame as it was a 7 shot.It was better made than the IOF,the over all fit was also better "

I'm reminded of the old saying fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

No offence penpusher. Remember I value every bit of ure advise.

Monish

[penpusher]

Monish,

No offence taken,but I fail to understand the foolishness in what I wrote. All armed forces officers are entitled to get a confiscated weapon alloted to them.They apply for this and are issued a weapon from the depot at Jabalpur at a nomimal price,depending upon availability.I think its Rs.125/- for a rifle and Rs.250/- for a handgun( ranks can keep one long arm and officer's can keep one handgun,without a license,during their service).The revolver was alloted to an Air force officer ( an Air vice-Marshal) in this manner and is entered on his license. It is a legal weapon in the hands of an bonafide licensee.

I am confused about your comments.Must be my thick Jat brain. A clarification would help.Awaiting enlightenment.

Take care,
penpusher

[Grumpy]

Many ( many ! ) years ago I had the opportunity to handle the Belgian made FN FAL rifles and can confirm that they were superbly made. Early UK spec rifles had full-auto facility but those generally issued were semi-auto only. Every soldier that I spoke to loved the FN rifle - it was, as I said, well made but also accurate and reliable.

[jonahpach]

Hello guys thanks! (I mean for the edit.) I keep forgetting that this is an open forum and have this stupid inclination that i am amongst my dearest of like minded friends. Maybe the problems that i spoke of was more of a regional nature and depicted the situation here in most of the northeast of india. It also could just be me!

E&OE

[penpusher]

Jonah,

We all love firearms and would love a situation in which all citizens of this country are free to own and enjoy firearms.Until that happens we all have to respect the law.No responsible citizen of this country can condone anything that is illegal.Love of something is no reason to break the law.Sunjay Dutt had tried to adopt the same plea during his bail hearing in the Supreme Court,unsuccessfully. The judges had remarked that tomorrow somebody might say that he loves to keep rocket launchers.

As far as your talk about how things are in the NE of the country, its not as wild as you make it out to be.Last I heard it was still a part of India and the Arms Act and Rules are also applicable there. Insurgency hit areas do experience a phase during which all sorts of firearms are floating around. There was such a period in Punjab also. Posessing a firearm in violation of any Act or Rule is however still illegal and you don't ahve to be in the NE to obtain an illeagal firearm.The media,both electronic and print,is full of reports of how easy it is to obtain any weapon or explosive with the right contacts and adequate money, anywhere in the country.Those who use them or posess them are criminals and deserve no mercy.I would not hesitate to shoot them ,if ever I have to.Rather I would consider it my duty towards the State and the society, to do so and will applaud anybody else who does so.

Coming back to the original topic,saying that a Pakistani company has produced a product,far better than what even the IOF can produce,is not being disloyal to our country.Nor is criticising the IOF an expression of any disloyalty.To keep quite while the IOF produces and sells shody stuff to our Jawans,putting their life and limb at risk,this is being disloyal to our country. Production in their factories should be handed over to people who know what they are doing.

I just wish we could buy the weapons being produced by this company or products of a similar quality produced by an Indian company.

Take care,
penpusher