Shooters off target with borrowed rifles

[Sakobav]

Any body has low down on this news..maybe send it to Hon Babus and Ministers too

News from Tribune
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100425/main6.htm

Shooters off target with borrowed rifles
Procedural delay behind lapse at C’wealth championship
Sunit Dhawan
Tribune News Service

Kadarpur (Gurgaon), April 24
The Commonwealth Shooting Federation Championship which concluded at the world-class shooting range on the CRPF campus here today left the self-esteem of the Indian participants bruised.

Despite having put in their best efforts, the Indian shooters finished last in the championship - for reasons beyond their control.

Shockingly, the Indian shooters, who did not even have rifles of their own (long-range rifles required for the 1,000-yard full-bore shooting events), had to borrow rifles from the visiting shooters from other countries.

Sources maintain that a procedural delay (read red tape) was behind the lapse.

True, it was for the first time that an Indian squad participated in a shooting event of this magnitude, but the lapse was avoidable.

For, the authorities concerned were fully aware of the shooting event and the requirement of long-range high-sight-adjustment rifles for the same well in advance.

Still, though a world-class shooting range with the latest facilities like electronic targets and other requirements was developed, the rifles required for the event could not be imported in time for it.

On being contacted for his comments, former CRPF IG TS Dhillon, the designated coach for the Indian shooting side for the event, admitted that the Indian shooters had to use borrowed weapons for the long-distance shooting.

He, however, asserted that the Indian players had performed quite well, considering the fact that it was for the first time that an Indian team had participated in an international full-bore meet. The focus of the Indian shooters was, obviously, on the 300-metre event as they did not have the weapons or experience to shoot targets beyond that distance.

“You cannot expect miracles…it was more of a confidence-building measure aimed at giving the much-needed exposure to our players,” maintained Dhillon, who is also the technical expert of the National Rifle Association of India and CRPF coordinator for the event.

Dhillon, who has played a pivotal role in getting the shooting range prepared and managing the entire event, expressed satisfaction over its successful completion.

“Arranging the required weapons and trainers for our shooting stars is the next target,” he asserted.

[nagarifle]

Dhillon, who has played a pivotal role in getting the shooting range prepared and managing the entire event, expressed satisfaction over its successful completion.

up the creek without a paddle! if that gives one satisfaction over the successful event, someone should ask the shooters.

[hvj1]

Dhillon, who has played a pivotal role in getting the shooting range prepared and managing the entire event, expressed satisfaction over its successful completion.

up the creek without a paddle! if that gives one satisfaction over the successful event, someone should ask the shooters.

[dr.jayakumar]

we have to thank our politicians for such laws,and continue to insult ourselves before the world

[MoA]

I am not surprised that the shooters were off target. Or did not do well at 1000 yards.

Shooting at distances beyond the 300 meters that most Indian full bore shooters shoot at, is a whole different ball game.
You have to know your weapon and load intimately. For example shooting a 150 grain .308 at 2800 odd ft per second, would require approximately 25 MoA + drop adjustment at 1000 yards, with a 300 yard zero. This is not accounting for wind or mirage. Personally i wouldnt shoot a .308 at that range, but that is a different story.

\In the Indian context with the draconian laws, lack of appropriate calibers, and non availability of reloading supplies, equipment and ranges to practise on I dont think you can expect anything different.

[eljefe]

I am surprised that our shooters attempted this exercise...wonder who uses what logic in Indian shooting sports? Maybe it was an exercise in ' ego shining' for a few people who were responsible for planning and holding the world class event?

The question of the host country's participation would have been last in their thoughts.
No Ammo, no rifles, no practice-Its a brave lot, the Indian shooters, who attempted the shoot -1000m shooting cant be learnt on the spot.
Congrats to the powers that be-who ever they are, for snatching another defeat-par for the course for the poor indian shooter with 50 rounds allowance and 3rd div clerks running the policy implementation.If the buggers arent getting a kickback, nothing matters.

[MoA]

Evidently the Indian coaches cant tell the difference between 10m air rifle and 1000 yard full bore...
Hey how difficult can it be? Point the gun down range and pull the trigger.

[dr.jayakumar]

i am sure they will repeat this

[hvj1]

I am surprised that our shooters attempted this exercise...wonder who uses what logic in Indian shooting sports? Maybe it was an exercise in ' ego shining' for a few people who were responsible for planning and holding the world class event?

You' hit the nail on its head. An example of ego shining, a common tale where organisations meant for the upliftment of sports are used as a via media for self aggrandizement. Schmucks exist in every part of the world, to allow them to have their way is pusillanimity of the highest order. Our shooters are so scared of standing up to these brazen bastards that I sometimes wonder whether they are not collectively wasting their time. To pursue goals in sports, one must also display courage. If the shooters cannot show spine when it counts, then how the hell will they show their mettle on the firing points?

[fantumfan2003]

Since its an article in an Indian newspaper, I am not ready to believe that our shooters tried their hand at 1000yds with borrowed 308 rifles. As MoA said you need a heavier caliber at 1000yds and am pretty sure the visiting teams carried proper calibre equipment.

To shoot accurately at 1000yds the shooter must know his equipment intimately. If our team has never done it before, they did not stand a chance. Currently, the only set of shooters in our country who can do this are the snipers from the Army and Navy.

M.

[MoA]

The .308 is capable of 1000 yard shooting. Just not the best caliber for it. If I had to select a caliber personally I would go with 6mm BR or 6 BRX or 6 Dasher. If I had to go with something other than 6 MM, in 6.5 I would go with .260 rem or a 6.5x47 or heavier a 300 Win mag but recoil builds up.

The .308 was just mentioned as an arbitary caliber to illustrate how much the bullet will drop at that range. The first time you shoot 1000 yards, it is fairly normal to miss the target completely. It takes a while to be able to get everything right and get on target. Now shooting accurately at that distance requires a lot of skill in wind reading, particularly with non-optical sights. With Optics you need to be able deal with mirage as well.

Most snipers actually are shooting at 300 meters or less. And the accuracy requirements for a Sniper are completely different.

[winnie_the_pooh]

If they increase the range a little bit they can always use the No4 Mk 1(some Pakistani made)

A few years ago I was invited to build a rifle for the 2300 yard
matches in England. The only requirement was that it would be able to
beat a Lee Enfield. What a joke! Since my rifles held all the 1000 yard
records at the time I felt confident when I told them if I didn't beat
every Enfield on the line they wouldn't have to pay for the rifle. I
should have checked the record book before shooting off my mouth .It
would have saved me a rifle. There is something very unique to the
Enfield that has been explained to me and I still don't understand
exactly what it is. It has to do with the two piece stock and the
harmonics plus the flex of the joint makes every thing come together at
2300 yards. You Lee Enfield lovers check the records of the 2300yard
matches at Bisley. It will lift your spirits so high you will be able
to laugh at us Magnum shooters. Don't ask me how a rifle with a 300 foot
mid range trajectory can consistantly beat out our high scoring Mags.

Gale McMillan

[eljefe]

Gale didnt read his brit history... The 303 Enfield has been doing it the past 110 years!

I wonder if some of the NRI shooters , obviously eligible for the event and owning suitable weapons would be interested in such a shoot? I for one am game, at my own expense, provided I am allowed to get my rifle in at IGI with enough practice ammo and reloading equipment and take it back, without a rumplestiltskin act from the MHA,DGFT and nauseum?

@ FF2003
A sniper doers not necessary mean Long range shooting. Have you seen that vid on worlds incredible police videos where a police sniper shoots a handgun out of a seated suspect's hand? about 140m IIRC. Yup, in WW1, the average range of engagement was about 400m, in Vietnam, it was 60m.
Again 2200m was the last recorded human kill taken by a Canadian sniper in Afghanistan a couple of years ago.
While 'sniper' are trained to estimate distances and read wind very efficiently ( amongst other things), an International event of the magnitude described above, needs trained marksmen-not necessarily from a defense background. Long range shooting has been the forte of many civilian organisations too and many developmental milestones have been achieved by good old Joe Civilian.
Thats some coach...NO equipment , no team ( by default) and a whole event is held as a confidence building measure? Bloody ell, I never knew Indian shooting was so rich as to build its shooters a 'world class' shooting range(I hope it wasnt like the other 'world class' facilities in Gurgava) as a CBM "...sit and watch the other teams shoot Son, you could have , had your rifles arrived yesterday...but its a good con-fidence building measure"CON being the operative word.
What are this man's Long range shooting qualifications,I wonder, to be appointed coach, and come out with inane statements like these? not even face saving.
Rant? I am hopping mad

[nagarifle]

eljefe
put the lid back and do not get steamed up. shooting as you know in India is not support but political eye wash. noting the likes of us can do any thing apart from forming ones own club and showing them how it should be done.

[MoA]

Winnie,

I seriously doubt the 2300 yard story. The reason being:

A 150 Grain bullet fired at 2900+ fps zero'd at 200 yards will have an almost 20 foot drop at that range. Moreover a gentle 10 mph cross wind will drift the bullet approximately 90 ft. Moreover the velocity at about 1200 yards will drop to below 200 fps. Then again to my knowldege the longest range at Bisley per se is about 1200 yards.

2300 yards is about 1.3 miles

In my limited experience and knowledge in order to be able to hit the target at a given range you do need the bullet to remain supersonic. I doubt if the story is more than internet myth specially given that Gale has been gone for a while. I dont buy it for a minute.
Also keep in mind:
1. the .303 with careful handloading will average a group of 4 inches.
2. The rifle is not known for accuracy.
3. How big is the target? Try picking up the average 1000 yard target at 2300.

Then again the Americans did test the .45-70 Sharps at 3200 yards, where they found the 500 grain soft lead bullets had no problems going through 3 inches of wood and burying them selves 8 inches deep in the sand. This is with a BP load. However keep in mind the targets were 23 feet or so wide. And even then only about 4 shots out of 40 actually hit the target.