Indians For Guns

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/chennai/ ... runner-341

Feb. 21: The police is on the lookout for a suspected gun runner named Vijayan of Seerkazhi 250 kms south of the city. Vijayan’s operation came to light after detection of a parcel containing the parts for the telescopic sights of guns at Chennai airport on Saturday. Vijayan, who is said to be away in Delhi, is suspected to be part of an international gun running racket.
According to sources in the customs department a team of officials checking cargo that arrived from Dubai stumbled upon a suspicious parcel on pm Saturday. The parcel of ‘toys’ had been booked from Dubai to an addressee in Mannadi, Chennai.
On scanning the parcel customs officials became more suspicious and they decided to open it in front of senior officials. “When it was opened they found the parcel contained 10 telescopic sights of guns along with two silencers. Import of gun parts by private individuals is a crime in the country. Moreover these gun parts have been declared as toys,” a senior official said.
Other security agencies, including the intelligence bureau, were alerted. The officials had a lucky break when a man named Yousuf from Mannadi came to collect the parcel on Saturday evening. He was immediately whisked away for questioning. When interrogated, he revealed that he was working for one Vijayan from Seerkazhi, who had asked him to pick up the parcel. Yousuf had also told the investigators that he had been regularly picking up such parcels and delivering them to Vijayan.
A team from the intelligence agency immediately rushed to Seerkazhi to pick up Vijayan. “The suspect was not there. But enquiries in the locality revealed that Yousuf’s version was true. Vijayan had reportedly gone to Delhi. As soon as we catch Vijayan, we will have more details,” officials said

When I read the kind of news as mentioned above, I am reminded of two quotes, the first one:

“Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure.” —Thomas Jefferson

THE ARMS ACT, 1959 NO.54 OF 1959 [23rd December, 1959]
An Act to consolidate and amend the law relating to arms and ammunition.
BE it enacted by Parliament in the Tenth Year of the Republic of India as follows:-

CHAPTER VI MISCELLANEOUS
:
40.Protection of action taken in good faith.- No suit, prosecution or other legal proceeding shall lie against any person for anything which is in good faith done or intended to be done under this Act.
:
45.Act not to apply in certain cases.- Nothing in this Act shall apply to---
:
(d) the acquisition, possession or carrying by a person of minor parts of arms or ammunition which are not intended to be used with complementary parts acquired or possessed by that or any other person.

and the second one:

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted and you create a nation of law-breakers."— Ayn Rand

Strangely enough contradicting clause 40 & 45 (d) of Arms Act 1959, some later notification by the centre declares the import of gun parts etc. a crime. Are gun parts a crime in themselves?

What do "telescopic sights" mean by themselves? Nothing but optical instruments.
Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescopic_sight

What do silencers mean by themselves? Nothing but sound suppressors. Every automobile has one. It is not a high tech equipment that needs a rocket scientist to create one, any mechanic can create/repair one. They are used to protect ears from damage by sound.
Ref: http://science.howstuffworks.com/question112.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor

goodboy_mentor wrote:CHAPTER VI MISCELLANEOUS
:
40.Protection of action taken in good faith.- No suit, prosecution or other legal proceeding shall lie against any person for anything which is in good faith done or intended to be done under this Act.

This provision clearly does not apply here.How does wrongly declaring goods be considered to be an act of good faith.Also this covered by the EXIM policy and not the Arms Act or Rules.EXIM policy restricts the import of rifle scopes i.e. they can't be imported without a license.

goodboy_mentor wrote:45.Act not to apply in certain cases.- Nothing in this Act shall apply to---
:
(d) the acquisition, possession or carrying by a person of minor parts of arms or ammunition which are not intended to be used with complementary parts acquired or possessed by that or any other person.

A sound suppressor is a firearms part intended to be used in conjunction with a firearm.It is not a minor part but has been specifically classified by the Arms Act.

We may not agree with what the law says but need to follow it.The alternative is to do something to get the law changed.As long as this does not happen,we should obey it.

This provision clearly does not apply here.How does wrongly declaring goods be considered to be an act of good faith.Also this covered by the EXIM policy and not the Arms Act or Rules.EXIM policy restricts the import of rifle scopes i.e. they can't be imported without a license.

That would mean everybody who is selling scopes on the forum should be on the 'wanted list' of the cops just as this so called 'gun-runner' . However and whatever our prevailing laws and regualtions maybe, I lament the fact that people such as this so called 'gun runner' have been made to bend so low as to want to smuggle something as innocuous as a simple rifle scope amongst toys just to make a few bucks! Make no mistake, The real trouble makers (Which our law makers should be targetting towards and whome the cops should be after) that are being sent into this country are being armed to the teeth with the latest sniper rifles and 4-5th generation nightvision scopes.

To make my point a bit clearer, a couple of weeks ago just before republic day our so called intelligence agency seemd to have recieved vital information that some 'un-identified' elements had just acquired hang gliders. Now it dosent take much imagination to deduce that such hang gliders could be used by our enemies to create havoc in our country. And amazingly so, our security agencies deduced just that.. And what do they do?? Ban Hang-gliding! (Did'nt it occur to them that those who came to do harm to this country might just love to take this ban and shove it up their A-- ?)

Now this being the kind of imaginative problem solving measures that our top cops come up with after a brain storming session and that too after the lessons of 21/11, We can only expect that our cops and law makers keep harrassing innocent citizens by entangling and entrapping us with a myriad of un necessary laws and regulations while the real enemies of the people of this country do what they like and go scot free.

I sometimes wonder why do we pay our taxes?? (Comming from Mizoram, I don't! )

Jonah

I fully agree with verminator and jonapach. Another example of high handedness. The Britons, who are employed with the UK Railways, had a hobby of plane spotting, have been booked under Section 4 & 20 of Indian Telegraph Act 1885 which was created by colonial rulers to keep natives "under control" from freely communicating with each other.
http://www.ptinews.com/news/522805_Arch ... wo-Britons
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 110894.ece
Indian Telegraph Act 1885:
http://www.dot.gov.in/Acts/telegraphact.htm
Laptops and binoculars are a threat to Indian Telegraph Act 1885. All people having laptops especially with wireless cards and binoculars please be aware you maybe violating the law. If you have them please throw them away. I have a pair of very powerful binoculars, I am thinking of throwing them away as soon as possible. Probably we all are also violating Indian Telegraph Act 1885 by connecting our computers to the internet

This is a subject of high debate. If individuals brought in a scope & silencer as personal baggage while returning from abroad, the customs could verify if the person is an arms licence holder & bonafide citizen and then take a call either to let go or penalize through duties if applicable. But if these items are sent as un-accompanied baggage that too to be collected by a third party - this arises suspicion. Besides the guy who has been detained has confessed that he has been doing this on a regular basis!!! What was the customs doing then??? The question arises if the end use of these items are for criminal purposes. Wonder if we will come to know of their findings!

By the way using a silencer / muffler in automobiles & bikes is one thing but using it in a firearm is another. Correct me if I am wrong - using silencers while hunting in the USA is prohibited.

Brihacharan

verminator wrote:What if the law ordered you to leave your grandmother on an iceberg for the polar-bears? Would we need to follow that law too?

Finding an iceberg and a polar bear is going to be very tough in India.

The Indian Parliament is not a sovereign body.Any and every Act of the Parliament is subject to Judicial Review of the Supreme Court as well as the Sate High Courts.

It does not seem verminator meant it literally. Even if the laws are subject to judicial review, still many silly or draconian laws can escape or even slip through judicial review. So long a law does not clearly violate a fundamental right, no matter how silly or draconian it is, the courts can hardly do anything about it. Example TADA etc. etc.

I see a lot of people asking a very very important question indeed. Why do we have to suffer such unfair, unjust and out right draconian laws. Just because we are Indians ? Why does our current government treat us as if we are still deprived of freedom ? As if we are still "subjects" to their rule. Makes me think of a quote from this great movie that once saw.

There is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.

They oppress us, treat us like infants and weaklings for one reason and one reason only.

Because we let them.

So what are we going to do about it ??

Food for thought,

Zake

I read somewhere on internet that a full 55% of cases in Indian courts are against "Government of India". Do not know if this is true? If GOI contributes to 55% of cases, there is something very wrong in our government. From a distance it seems the only thing wrong with India.

Wonder if most realise that there is no such thing as a "silencer" for firearms (except in the movies), what device is available is correctly called a moderator - as it reduces the sound but it can never really completely eliminate it. With that out of the way, as per the Arms Act/ Arms Rules the relevant licensing authority for a firearm moderator would be the local DM/ DC... though I very much doubt if anyone has ever really applied for a license for one, at least I am not aware of any such license(s) ever haven being issued. In many European countries, the use of moderators is actively encouraged as it reduces noise pollution and hearing damage, AFAIK there are no extra permits required for the purchase and use of such devices. Maybe some of our friends from Europe can further elaborate on this...

A moderator is a fairly simple device, and if one has nefarious designs, one does not need to import a moderator... you can quite easily make a very effective one at home, the simplest kind can be made using just an empty Coke PET bottle - if you care to learn more, you can google for more information.

I am fairly certain that this whole moderator/ scope import racket was nothing more than the usual unscrupulous dealer trying to make a fast buck by selling them in the local market for several times the cost. Now this is merely speculation on my part... lets see what information the coming days reveal.

The way to stop people breaking these laws? Repeal them!! Since India is unable to produce a scope of even poor quality, open up imports and let the market decide what gets imported and what does not. It will kill the grey market in one move, as well as bring in revenues for the Govt.

Will they ever do it? I very much doubt it... Why? Well, for the same reason that they will never abolish Income tax, till very recently we have consistently spent more money collecting that tax than the total Income tax collections - Yep, you heard me right! Can you believe it?!! The Govt. was actually making a constant loss on Income tax collections??!!! Now why would they continue with such an enterprise? Hmmm... look at the figures - only 2% of Indians pay Income tax, vote wise they can be easily ignored by political parties, but having some "leverage" on those in the top bracket (big businessmen), is very useful for many reasons AND those who do not pay Income tax (98% of the population) can be easily mollified by showing them how the Govt. is taking from the rich and giving to them - therefore, even though the Govt. knows that they can collect more revenue by abolishing Income tax and concentrating on Indirect taxes, it will never happen.

In the same vein, the Govt. knows that licensed gun owners do not commit crimes, but they are an easy target, whenever there is a spurt in crime AND/ OR a high profile incident, they will add further restrictions on legal gun owners. It does nothing to prevent crime, but it makes it seem as if they are doing something, and since so far it directly affected only small (silent) minority, it worked quite well for them. Just like an analogy a friend gave me (on the phone):

A man was very carefully sifting through the grass under a lamppost... a passing man asked him what he was doing? So he told him that he was looking for his wallet which had dropped out of his pocket in the bushes next to the road. Quite puzzled, the other chap asked him if it dropped out in the bushes by the road, why don't you look for it there? The man replied - there is more light here!

That in a few sentences illustrates the basic problem facing all legitimate gun owners in India...

What about National Security you ask?? Well... are we so naive as to believe that a potential assassin is dependant on such routes to procure his/ her required equipment? As always the crooks will carry on getting what they want, when they want it.... whether it be a simple handgun or high explosives etc.

I think in our heart of hearts we all do realise this simple fact, as I am sure do those who make & enforce our laws.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

mundaire wrote:Wonder if most realise that there is no such thing as a "silencer" for firearms (except in the movies), what device is available is correctly called a moderator - as it reduces the sound but it can never really completely eliminate it. With that out of the way, as per the Arms Act/ Arms Rules the relevant licensing authority for a firearm moderator would be the local DM/ DC... though I very much doubt if anyone has ever really applied for a license for one, at least I am not aware of any such license(s) ever haven being issued. In many European countries, the use of moderators is actively encouraged as it reduces noise pollution and hearing damage, AFAIK there are no extra permits required for the purchase and use of such devices. Maybe some of our friends from Europe can further elaborate on this...

A moderator is a fairly simple device, and if one has nefarious designs, one does not need to import a moderator... you can quite easily make a very effective one at home, the simplest kind can be made using just an empty Coke PET bottle - if you care to learn more, you can google for more information.

I am fairly certain that this whole moderator/ scope import racket was nothing more than the usual unscrupulous dealer trying to make a fast buck by selling them in the local market for several times the cost. Now this is merely speculation on my part... lets see what information the coming days reveal.

The way to stop people breaking these laws? Repeal them!! Since India is unable to produce a scope of even poor quality, open up imports and let the market decide what gets imported and what does not. It will kill the grey market in one move, as well as bring in revenues for the Govt.

Will they ever do it? I very much doubt it... Why? Well, for the same reason that they will never abolish Income tax, till very recently we have consistently spent more money collecting that tax than the total Income tax collections - Yep, you heard me right! Can you believe it?!! The Govt. was actually making a constant loss on Income tax collections??!!! Now why would they continue with such an enterprise? Hmmm... look at the figures - only 2% of Indians pay Income tax, vote wise they can be easily ignored by political parties, but having some "leverage" on those in the top bracket (big businessmen), is very useful for many reasons AND those who do not pay Income tax (98% of the population) can be easily mollified by showing them how the Govt. is taking from the rich and giving to them - therefore, even though the Govt. knows that they can collect more revenue by abolishing Income tax and concentrating on Indirect taxes, it will never happen.

In the same vein, the Govt. knows that licensed gun owners do not commit crimes, but they are an easy target, whenever there is a spurt in crime AND/ OR a high profile incident, they will add further restrictions on legal gun owners. It does nothing to prevent crime, but it makes it seem as if they are doing something, and since so far it directly affected only small (silent) minority, it worked quite well for them. Just like an analogy a friend gave me (on the phone):

A man was very carefully sifting through the grass under a lamppost... a passing man asked him what he was doing? So he told him that he was looking for his wallet which had dropped out of his pocket in the bushes next to the road. Quite puzzled, the other chap asked him if it dropped out in the bushes by the road, why don't you look for it there? The man replied - there is more light here!

That in a few sentences illustrates the basic problem facing all legitimate gun owners in India...

What about National Security you ask?? Well... are we so naive as to believe that a potential assassin is dependant on such routes to procure his/ her required equipment? As always the crooks will carry on getting what they want, when they want it.... whether it be a simple handgun or high explosives etc.

I think in our heart of hearts we all do realise this simple fact, as I am sure do those who make & enforce our laws.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

This is for the information of all forum members.There will be many, who have visited or lived in dubai,who will vouch for what i say.
NO FIRE ARMS ARE SOLD IN DUBAI,NOT EVEN AIR PISTOLS(after the GRAFF jwellery store Robbery/heist).JUST A MATTER OF TIME AIR GUNS ARE BANNED TOO.
ONLY MEMBERS OF THE RULING FAMILY AND POLICE , ARMED FORCES ARE ALLOWED TO POSSESS,OWN CARRY OR OR BUY FIRE ARMS.
One cant help but laugh at the ignorance and stupidity of the men in white.As always,They are making a mountain out of a mole hill,possibly to please their seniors.
What they are calling SILENCERS are (maybe) airgun MODERATORS.
What they are calling optic sights are AIR GUN SCOPES.
I bet they wouldnt know the difference between a airgun rated scope and a firearm rated scope.
It isnt their fault also as they are not trained to do so.
Post 9/11 international airports are a difficult place.Anything metallic in your bag will lead to a very closer detailed examination of the baggage.
Silencers for firearms (handguns) are possibly banned worldwide.If they are not sold in dubai how does one ship them.
Besides,dubai police is very myopic about security.They have the latest xray scan machines at their arrival and departure points.(i have gone thru a bad experience when i carried a .177 cal CP88 rotary magazine in my cabin baggage,eventually,had to miss my flight)
Regards

gunrunner wrote:Silencers are banned worldwide.

This is simply NOT TRUE!

Cheers!
Abhijeet