No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
- kanwar76
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No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
Hmmm looks like same story again
http://www.thehindu.com/2009/04/08/stor ... 831000.htm
No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
Praveen Swami:
Modernisation programme built around outdated, inappropriate weapons
MUMBAI: In the wake of November 2008 carnage, the Mumbai Police promised the people that it would soon arm itself with the equipment it needed to evolve into a credible counter-terrorism force.
In the next few weeks, the police will receive the first of the new guns it desperately needs. But experts in India’s elite forces and military have told The Hindu that the four critical weapons systems do not in fact pack much of a bang. Ordered without competitive field trials, the weapons are being criticised as technologically suspect and inappropriate to local needs.
M4 Colt 5.56 Carbine
The Mumbai Police planners have chosen this assault weapon, which had been in service with militaries and special forces around the worldjust as it is being phased out.
During the Vietnam War, the United States troops discovered the limitations of North Atlantic Treaty Organisation-standard 7.62 x 51 millimetre rifles and in response to their needs, Colt designed the now-classic M16 rifle.
For special forces’ use in urban counter-terrorism contexts—situations where accuracy can be sacrificed for ease of use in confined spaces—the M16’s designers produced a variant with a short barrel and folding stock – the M4 carbine.
Despite its distinguished pedigree, the M4 suffers from several problems inherent to the gas-optimised system that powers its firing mechanism: among them, jamming and heavy component wear and tear.
Given that the M4 will serve the Mumbai Police for three decades and more, the choice of technology is debatable. Even as the police prepare to take delivery of the Carbine, some of its users are switching to more modern systems. The United States’ Marines have chosen the Fabrique Nationale Herstal Special Forces Compact Assault Rifle, while the crack Delta Force has picked the Heckler and Koch M4.
Sub-compact version
In service with crack forces such as the Special Protection Group (SPG) and National Security Guards, the Brügger & Thomet MP9 is a sub-compact version of the classic MP5 A4 and MP5 A3 machine-pistols.
Designed to be concealed inside the clothes of close-protection guards assigned to VIPs, the MP9 has a retractable stock and the magazine is fitted inside the grip. Like other weapons of this kind, it trades accuracy for size.
The Mumbai Police planners are thought to have ordered over 200 MP9 units—a surprise number, given that responsibility for protecting the State’s VIPs lies with a special unit of the Maharashtra Police. Moreover, it has ordered none of the more accurate MP5 series.
Experts in the armed forces believe that the Mumbai Police ought to have evaluated newer weapons systems before making a purchase decision.
For a variety of technical reasons, the 9 millimetre ammunition used by the MP5A4 is known to be less than optimally efficient at generating the neurological shock that kills or incapacitates targets. Designers have sought to compensate for the design flaws in the 9 millimetre system by creating what are known as hollow-point bullets.
But many crack forces have switched over to newer ammunition systems.
The SPG, for example, uses the 5.27 x 8 millimetre Fabrique Nationale Herstal P90. Built around what designers call a ‘Bullpup’ frame, the P90 is compact without compromising on accuracy.
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 Millimetre Pistol
This is a new weapon designed to break into a market dominated by European manufacturers Glock, Heckler and Koch and Sig Sauer. It has so far had little success. The U.S. Department of Homeland Security, for example, rejected the home-manufactured Smith & Wesson in favour of Europe’s Sig Sauer and Heckler and Koch.
Most police forces in India, including the Maharashtra Police, have purchased the popular Glock 9 millimetre. But Mumbai Police sources said the decision to purchase Smith & Wesson was made because of problems reported with the Glock from Punjab and elsewhere.
However, the problems are believed to be the result of sub-standard ammunition and not faulty design.
M82/M107 Special Application Rifle
This weapon, earlier known as the M82, is the most powerful small arm in the world; anything larger counts as a canon. Its 50-calibre shells can punch through Level 8 ballistic glass, the strongest available, and puncture armoured vehicles—this, at ranges upwards of 2.5 kilometres.
In theory, this power is useful for shooting terrorists through concrete walls, after identifying their locations with thermal imaging systems.
But the risk of collateral damage to civilians is immense, not in the least because the Mumbai Police personnel do not have a firing range on which they can be trained in the use of the M107 SAR.
Given that Mumbai will soon have a dedicated NSG unit at Kalina on call for situations where the weapon might be needed, the rationale behind the purchase is all the more mystifying.
No police force in the world uses the M107 SAR in counter-terrorism jobs, where civilians may be at risk. New York’s police Special Weapons and Tactics team uses the SAR to blow apart vehicle engines in high-speed chases as a last resort.
The Jammu and Kashmir Police, India’s most experienced counter-terrorism force, use nothing more powerful than the Soviet-designed 7.62 millimetre sniper rifles.
-Inder
http://www.thehindu.com/2009/04/08/stor ... 831000.htm
No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
Praveen Swami:
Modernisation programme built around outdated, inappropriate weapons
MUMBAI: In the wake of November 2008 carnage, the Mumbai Police promised the people that it would soon arm itself with the equipment it needed to evolve into a credible counter-terrorism force.
In the next few weeks, the police will receive the first of the new guns it desperately needs. But experts in India’s elite forces and military have told The Hindu that the four critical weapons systems do not in fact pack much of a bang. Ordered without competitive field trials, the weapons are being criticised as technologically suspect and inappropriate to local needs.
M4 Colt 5.56 Carbine
The Mumbai Police planners have chosen this assault weapon, which had been in service with militaries and special forces around the worldjust as it is being phased out.
During the Vietnam War, the United States troops discovered the limitations of North Atlantic Treaty Organisation-standard 7.62 x 51 millimetre rifles and in response to their needs, Colt designed the now-classic M16 rifle.
For special forces’ use in urban counter-terrorism contexts—situations where accuracy can be sacrificed for ease of use in confined spaces—the M16’s designers produced a variant with a short barrel and folding stock – the M4 carbine.
Despite its distinguished pedigree, the M4 suffers from several problems inherent to the gas-optimised system that powers its firing mechanism: among them, jamming and heavy component wear and tear.
Given that the M4 will serve the Mumbai Police for three decades and more, the choice of technology is debatable. Even as the police prepare to take delivery of the Carbine, some of its users are switching to more modern systems. The United States’ Marines have chosen the Fabrique Nationale Herstal Special Forces Compact Assault Rifle, while the crack Delta Force has picked the Heckler and Koch M4.
Sub-compact version
In service with crack forces such as the Special Protection Group (SPG) and National Security Guards, the Brügger & Thomet MP9 is a sub-compact version of the classic MP5 A4 and MP5 A3 machine-pistols.
Designed to be concealed inside the clothes of close-protection guards assigned to VIPs, the MP9 has a retractable stock and the magazine is fitted inside the grip. Like other weapons of this kind, it trades accuracy for size.
The Mumbai Police planners are thought to have ordered over 200 MP9 units—a surprise number, given that responsibility for protecting the State’s VIPs lies with a special unit of the Maharashtra Police. Moreover, it has ordered none of the more accurate MP5 series.
Experts in the armed forces believe that the Mumbai Police ought to have evaluated newer weapons systems before making a purchase decision.
For a variety of technical reasons, the 9 millimetre ammunition used by the MP5A4 is known to be less than optimally efficient at generating the neurological shock that kills or incapacitates targets. Designers have sought to compensate for the design flaws in the 9 millimetre system by creating what are known as hollow-point bullets.
But many crack forces have switched over to newer ammunition systems.
The SPG, for example, uses the 5.27 x 8 millimetre Fabrique Nationale Herstal P90. Built around what designers call a ‘Bullpup’ frame, the P90 is compact without compromising on accuracy.
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 Millimetre Pistol
This is a new weapon designed to break into a market dominated by European manufacturers Glock, Heckler and Koch and Sig Sauer. It has so far had little success. The U.S. Department of Homeland Security, for example, rejected the home-manufactured Smith & Wesson in favour of Europe’s Sig Sauer and Heckler and Koch.
Most police forces in India, including the Maharashtra Police, have purchased the popular Glock 9 millimetre. But Mumbai Police sources said the decision to purchase Smith & Wesson was made because of problems reported with the Glock from Punjab and elsewhere.
However, the problems are believed to be the result of sub-standard ammunition and not faulty design.
M82/M107 Special Application Rifle
This weapon, earlier known as the M82, is the most powerful small arm in the world; anything larger counts as a canon. Its 50-calibre shells can punch through Level 8 ballistic glass, the strongest available, and puncture armoured vehicles—this, at ranges upwards of 2.5 kilometres.
In theory, this power is useful for shooting terrorists through concrete walls, after identifying their locations with thermal imaging systems.
But the risk of collateral damage to civilians is immense, not in the least because the Mumbai Police personnel do not have a firing range on which they can be trained in the use of the M107 SAR.
Given that Mumbai will soon have a dedicated NSG unit at Kalina on call for situations where the weapon might be needed, the rationale behind the purchase is all the more mystifying.
No police force in the world uses the M107 SAR in counter-terrorism jobs, where civilians may be at risk. New York’s police Special Weapons and Tactics team uses the SAR to blow apart vehicle engines in high-speed chases as a last resort.
The Jammu and Kashmir Police, India’s most experienced counter-terrorism force, use nothing more powerful than the Soviet-designed 7.62 millimetre sniper rifles.
-Inder
I am the Saint the Soldier that walks in Peace. I am the Humble dust of your feet, But dont think my Spirituality makes me weak. The Heavens will roar if my Kirpan were to speak...
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Re: No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
Not very surprising or is it?
What is pleasantly surprising is the relatively knowledgeable write up on specialised firearms.You can dispute if you choose about what he is saying.But, the quality of information is much better than what one finds usually.
Thank you for sharing.
Best-
Vikram
What is pleasantly surprising is the relatively knowledgeable write up on specialised firearms.You can dispute if you choose about what he is saying.But, the quality of information is much better than what one finds usually.
Thank you for sharing.
Best-
Vikram
It ain’t over ’til it’s over! "Rocky,Rocky,Rocky....."
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Re: No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
Couldn't have said it better.Reflects poorly on the 'expertise' of the 'trained to handle firearms' professional police force.Vikram wrote:What is pleasantly spurring is the relatively knowledgeable write up on specialised firearms.You can dispute if you choose about what he is saying.But, the quality of information is much better than what one finds usually.
I am sure,no matter what firearm you buy for the police men,they will come up with some excuse or the other as to why they did not fire on the perp. or why they could not hit any one of them(don't forget their marksmanship during 26/11)
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Re: No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
I've been asked to prove a .22 airgun can not burn a propellant. Inspecting the airgun has not convinced the oficial's so far. I need to provide with proof (????). With babudom so experienced, and so aware what better can be expected???
Another thing which I find interesting is whether it is armament for the forces, or preparedness for the Commonwealth games, every time some progress is anounced, it is only in terms of how much money has been spent or has been planned to be spent. Am I stretching too far to imagine that all this has to do with how much is being made in these deals/ acts???
best, HS
Another thing which I find interesting is whether it is armament for the forces, or preparedness for the Commonwealth games, every time some progress is anounced, it is only in terms of how much money has been spent or has been planned to be spent. Am I stretching too far to imagine that all this has to do with how much is being made in these deals/ acts???
best, HS
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
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Re: No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
even a glock 17 is on its way for the mumbai police
god konw what they did with their prior service revolvers?
and mumbai police has again problems with glock 9mm which is the know as the best tactical handgun till date.!!
surprising
god konw what they did with their prior service revolvers?
and mumbai police has again problems with glock 9mm which is the know as the best tactical handgun till date.!!
surprising
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.
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Re: No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
In my opinion for close and medium distance combat AK 47 and hand grenades are not bad option, for sniping 7.62*51 is not bad either. For blasting concrete etc. instead of M82/M107, RPGs would serve the purpose in a cost effective way(in situations where collateral damage is not an issue). In India when something happens, police has to "justify" for their failure, excuses are given and rest everyone knows what follows. If sitting in a defensive position SMLE .303 is pretty accurate in hands of trained policeman to take on AK 47.
"The fast-operating Lee bolt-action and large magazine capacity enabled a trained rifleman to fire between 20 to 30 aimed rounds a minute, making the Lee-Enfield the fastest military bolt-action rifle of the day. The still current world record for aimed bolt-action fire was set in 1914 by a musketry instructor in the British Army — Sergeant Instructor Snoxall — who placed 38 rounds into a 12" target at 300 yards in one minute. Some straight-pull bolt-action rifles were thought faster, but lacked the simplicity, reliability and generous magazine capacity of the Lee-Enfield. War stories from WWI tell of British troops sending the Germans home reporting they'd suffered withering machine gun fire, when, in fact, it was simply a group of trained riflemen armed with standard-issue SMLE Mk III rifles." Reference: http://www.chuckhawks.com/lee_boltaction_rifle.htm and http://morinish.tripod.com/303SMLE.htm
"The fast-operating Lee bolt-action and large magazine capacity enabled a trained rifleman to fire between 20 to 30 aimed rounds a minute, making the Lee-Enfield the fastest military bolt-action rifle of the day. The still current world record for aimed bolt-action fire was set in 1914 by a musketry instructor in the British Army — Sergeant Instructor Snoxall — who placed 38 rounds into a 12" target at 300 yards in one minute. Some straight-pull bolt-action rifles were thought faster, but lacked the simplicity, reliability and generous magazine capacity of the Lee-Enfield. War stories from WWI tell of British troops sending the Germans home reporting they'd suffered withering machine gun fire, when, in fact, it was simply a group of trained riflemen armed with standard-issue SMLE Mk III rifles." Reference: http://www.chuckhawks.com/lee_boltaction_rifle.htm and http://morinish.tripod.com/303SMLE.htm
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Re: No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
the article looks like vitamin M might be on the move again
"Stan, don't you know the first law of physics? Anything that's fun costs at least eight dollars."
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Re: No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
I am sorry, I did not understand, what do you mean by the above line?the article looks like vitamin M might be on the move again
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Re: No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
even i didnt understand
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.
- kanwar76
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Re: No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
I think Hami is talking about the main article.. Vitamin M as in moolah...
I am the Saint the Soldier that walks in Peace. I am the Humble dust of your feet, But dont think my Spirituality makes me weak. The Heavens will roar if my Kirpan were to speak...
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Re: No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
Moolah is the ultimate aim and the game at every possible opportunity
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Re: No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
I think it is very ineresting that the "so called Expert" condems the choices made by the Mumbai Police on the new weapons for their department.
Such weapons as the M4 (an upgraded version of the original AR-15 from the '60"s) are not as unreliable as the writer would have one believe. In fact three nations that currently issue them (USA, Isreal and South Korea) are using them to good effect in conditions ranging from ultra hot to extremely cold. However, If you do as we did in the '60's and tell folks that a new weapon is going to fix everything, then you are definitely headed down the primrose path.
New weapons without the necessary training for the end users will not solve problems that surfaced during the last go around. If you had police armed (even with a lowly .32) that had a clear shot at the terrorists and didn't take them out, putting a S&W M&P 9MM in their hands is not going to fix the underlying problem.
I'm a cop in a small town and we've seen nothing regarding the issue of cops not agressively challenging the terrorists or the methods used by the Mumbai police to counter that issue.
Me? I'm carrying a Walther PPK/s in 380 this evening and in my cruiser is and Armalite AR 180 in .223 and a Remington 870 Pump shotgun with slugs.
And yes, I've worked two homicides and more than a couple of barricade situations with these same weapons.
Such weapons as the M4 (an upgraded version of the original AR-15 from the '60"s) are not as unreliable as the writer would have one believe. In fact three nations that currently issue them (USA, Isreal and South Korea) are using them to good effect in conditions ranging from ultra hot to extremely cold. However, If you do as we did in the '60's and tell folks that a new weapon is going to fix everything, then you are definitely headed down the primrose path.
New weapons without the necessary training for the end users will not solve problems that surfaced during the last go around. If you had police armed (even with a lowly .32) that had a clear shot at the terrorists and didn't take them out, putting a S&W M&P 9MM in their hands is not going to fix the underlying problem.
I'm a cop in a small town and we've seen nothing regarding the issue of cops not agressively challenging the terrorists or the methods used by the Mumbai police to counter that issue.
Me? I'm carrying a Walther PPK/s in 380 this evening and in my cruiser is and Armalite AR 180 in .223 and a Remington 870 Pump shotgun with slugs.
And yes, I've worked two homicides and more than a couple of barricade situations with these same weapons.
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’
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Re: No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
1. I agree with Vikram on the level of expertise demonstrated in the article. I will note, however, that the author of the article said
2. I agree with Sarge on the assessment of the M16.
There's not too much fault to find re: the AK-47 -- considering what it was meant for and what it cost. It is incredibly reliable and cheap to manufacture. There's no doubt about this, and how these factors make it the weapon of choice for insurgents and forces with certain levels of training.
However, where the AK-47 cannot compete with an M16 is in the area of accuracy. Given that the police force members who will be using these weapons, and the understandably reasonable assumption that they will have the training and resources necessary for ensuring that their M16s go bang properly when needed, I don't see a problem with this choice.
I'll be the first to admit that I am not at all enamored with the Stoner System and the direct impingement of gasses on the bolt. However, the weapon will perform as intended if it is maintained by certain well-identified procedures.
Regarding the S&W 9mm pistol, I can't comment.
However, I will note that both Colt and S&W have a hostile policy for a citizen's RKBA, so on those grounds, I'm usually not keen on seeing them make a penny for that reason. Both companies make their money on governmental contracts, so they have decided to "sell out" the ordinary citizen.
This is most certainly not true. It is a well-known fact that Eugene Stoner of ArmaLite Corporation was the author of the design, which Colt purchased the manufacturing rights for.Colt designed the now-classic M16 rifle
2. I agree with Sarge on the assessment of the M16.
There's not too much fault to find re: the AK-47 -- considering what it was meant for and what it cost. It is incredibly reliable and cheap to manufacture. There's no doubt about this, and how these factors make it the weapon of choice for insurgents and forces with certain levels of training.
However, where the AK-47 cannot compete with an M16 is in the area of accuracy. Given that the police force members who will be using these weapons, and the understandably reasonable assumption that they will have the training and resources necessary for ensuring that their M16s go bang properly when needed, I don't see a problem with this choice.
I'll be the first to admit that I am not at all enamored with the Stoner System and the direct impingement of gasses on the bolt. However, the weapon will perform as intended if it is maintained by certain well-identified procedures.
Regarding the S&W 9mm pistol, I can't comment.
However, I will note that both Colt and S&W have a hostile policy for a citizen's RKBA, so on those grounds, I'm usually not keen on seeing them make a penny for that reason. Both companies make their money on governmental contracts, so they have decided to "sell out" the ordinary citizen.
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Re: No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
Special forces in India should be able to evaluate and perfect the weapons and the ammunition they need for counter-terrorism. In the mean time, they have the luxury of choosing the weapons and ammunition used by the elite forces across the world. At the end, it is motivation and training that matters. Politicians should allow professionals to take care of security situations. They must contribute positively to stabilise volatile situations. Indian government must encourage private firearm ownership and remove calibre restriction. Armed citizenry is the best detterant for any terrorism. I would love to see this happen in India.
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Re: No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
kanwar76 wrote:Hmmm looks like same story again
http://www.thehindu.com/2009/04/08/stor ... 831000.htm
No bang in Mumbai Police’s new guns
Most police forces in India, including the Maharashtra Police, have purchased the popular Glock 9 millimetre. But Mumbai Police sources said the decision to purchase Smith & Wesson was made because of problems reported with the Glock from Punjab and elsewhere.
However, the problems are believed to be the result of sub-standard ammunition and not faulty design.
-Inder
Having used Glock 9mm ,357sig and 40s&w pistols I can honestly say they are not fussy feeders ,with the generous chamber tolerances and the unsupported chamber design it could only be a worn out or damaged magazine or really ,really poor ammunition. The ammo must be pure crap!!