Indians For Guns

Dear All,

Please promote this cause, if you are in agreement. I am making a special request to Shri Abhijeet.

It is agonizing to read the news that the Madhya Pradesh Assembly has unanimously passed a Bill awarding DEATH to those found guilty of raping girls below teenage.

The MP Assembly appears to have taken an emotional decision to the problem, which indeed is chronic to say the least, if the crime data published by the National Crime Records Bureau for 2016 are any indications. According to the data, of the total 38,947 rapes committed across India, 4954 were in UP alone. (Madhya Pradesh and Utter Pradesh bagged the 2nd and 3rd prizes with 4908 and 4817 rape cases respectively).

The Human Rights Watch reports in a sample survey that more than 7200 minors are raped in India each year! Indeed, it is a serious situation and need must be addressed urgently but definitely not with MURDER! No State has the right to kill its own citizens, but unfortunately our politicians appear to be seeking a quick solution to the problem, which is going out of their hands, instead of revamping the State Administration.

Here is what the State can do:
- The first step is to realize that it is the State’s own creation.
- The State wants to send a strong and effective message to deter recurrence of the crime.
- By Capital Punishment, we are not addressing the cause but the effect.
- Jurisprudence has it that “it is not the severity of the punishment that acts as a deterrent but its inevitability”
- The State must ensure the inevitability of punishment, and not its severity, which is possible only if the law enforcement is insulated from politics. Otherwise, sons, brothers, uncles, nephews, in-laws and other close allies of influential politicians will escape unhurt.
- Statistics corroborate that our fight against crime is grossly inadequate. The total crime against women in 2016 has witnessed a whopping increase of 37% over the previous year! This is nothing but the result of gross maladministration!
- There is a vast shortage of police (which itself needs to be sanitized), judges, check-posts, weapons, forensic science labs etc. Add interminable court delays, ineffective prosecutions and out-dated police service rules to further worsen the problem, to quote the words of Baijayant Panda, MP.
- Against a UN norm of 222 police personnel per lakh of population, the actual strength is an abysmal 137.
- All the judges in the country together add up to just 18 per million population!
- India has a conviction rate of 47% compared to more than 85% in developed democracies like France, Japan, the US etc which exposes the gross inadequacy of our system.
There is a more practical and humanistic way to deter rape committed against children below teenage which is to use castration. There are different castration methods, one of which can be administered effectively. SPARE THE LIFE! AT WORST, BARTER DEATH FOR CASTRATION. Several countries are following it.
While admitting the fact that rape is the worst form of cruelty, and more so of minors, and therefore must be met with an equal degree of punishment, a rape shall be no rape where there is a consent. As for the age, no State has the right to dictate people when they should engage themselves in sex. The age factor comes into play only for clinical reasons.

I would say that is a well argued post.

Personally, I believe that capital punishment is justified in some cases. I will have no moral qualms if perpetrators of some of the heinous crimes one reads about to are given capital punishment . My only concern is not whether the state has the right to deprive one of life but with how efficiently an investigation is conducted, how fair a trial the accused had and how proportionate is the punishment to the crime. Case in example is the murder of the school kid in Delhi. Initially the bus conductor was arrested and the fellow admitted his guilt in front of cameras and I wanted the SoB to hang. Then suddenly the CIB arrested another kid from the same school and claims that the conductor did not have anything to do with the murder and his confession was coerced. I would rather have a criminal go free than have an innocent punished. But, in cases where guilt is established beyond reasonable doubt, capital punishment must be considered where appropriate.

Re capital punishment in case of rapes, my concern is that perpetrators may murder the victims to avoid facing death penalty. While rape is a horrific crime, losing life is worse. The nature of crime has to be taken into consideration, IMO. Automatic death penalty in rape cases can cause a spike in murders of rape victims.

a rape shall be no rape where there is a consent. As for the age, no State has the right to dictate people when they should engage themselves in sex. The age factor comes into play only for clinical reasons.

I don't know if you would/could have phrased this with more clarity but on the face of it, it looks oversimplified. A person on the verge of becoming an adult in a few months is different from someone who is far from the age of consent. Where does one draw the line? What does it take to coax a consent? A ten year old does not have the capacity of a sixteen years old to judge one's actions. I think you need to reconsider that part. There can be mitigating circumstances in cases of technical rape (Forgive my expression here) such as one involving an underage person but closer to age of consent,etc. But, doing away with consent altogether is dangerous and immoral,IMO.


Best-
Vikram

Nor a fear of punishment however hard it may be and not a system built to stop rape will stop the one from becoming a rapist.Only possible way to stop rape or whatever crime is education and moral enlightenment.
If fear of death is only solution according to them then it is futile.
According to me the only thing which can prevent one from doing wrong is "Do whatever you like but before that ask your innerself i.e. Conscience whether it is right or wrong"
Thanks

I am in favor of capital punishment. Already there is too many loop holes in Our law for a criminal to bail out. If Govt has decided for Capital punishment in certain rape situations then I think it will create at least some fear in the mind of the person who is inclined for such crimes.

Rapists,terrorists,psychotic serial killers those who enjoy killing,and people who ignite communal riots should be punished severely......

Nobody has discussed the biased, selective and prejudiced implementation of the laws in this notoriously corrupt country. If you happen to be from poor or politically marginalized sections of the society like dalits or religious minorities or labelled a "terrorist", and charged with crime, then your fate may be pretty much doomed. But if you happen to from the the ruling elite, no matter what crime you have done, the law may not touch you. Rather you may get Z plus category of security. This is the unfortunate reality.

How will increasing the severity of punishment going to help when the existing laws are not being implemented with honesty and impartiality? In a nutshell this will become a handy tool in the hands of the depraved elements in the ruling elite to frame the poor or politically marginalized sections of the society like dalits or religious minorities with rape and then send them to the gallows.

Courts anywhere in the world are not infallible. Innocents also do get punished and in a notoriously corrupt country having a highly politicized police and judicial system, where barbaric and brutal torture is the "normal method" of interrogation, one can imagine what must be happening. When a suspect is tortured by police, it is not unusual for the suspect to falsely agree to what the police wants him to say, that is just "confess" the crime to escape torture. I do not want to retype or re post the same material here, instead the post represented by the following link may also be read along with this post viewtopic.php?f=12&t=25549&p=252075#p252075

I am in favour of chemical or physical castration. Death should not come cheap

goodboy_mentor wrote:Nobody has discussed the biased, selective and prejudiced implementation of the laws in this notoriously corrupt country.

This is what I wrote in my post.

Vikram wrote:I will have no moral qualms if perpetrators of some of the heinous crimes one reads about to are given capital punishment . My only concern is not whether the state has the right to deprive one of life but with how efficiently an investigation is conducted, how fair a trial the accused had and how proportionate is the punishment to the crime. Case in example is the murder of the school kid in Delhi. Initially the bus conductor was arrested and the fellow admitted his guilt in front of cameras and I wanted the SoB to hang. Then suddenly the CIB arrested another kid from the same school and claims that the conductor did not have anything to do with the murder and his confession was coerced. I would rather have a criminal go free than have an innocent punished. But, in cases where guilt is established beyond reasonable doubt, capital punishment must be considered where appropriate.

Vikram wrote:This is what I wrote in my post.

Oh sorry, missed that, it was past midnight and feeling dizzy and sleepy. Had only quickly glanced through the posts and got an impression those demanding death or other punishments have no clue about what is actually going on in this country and seemed to be living in some utopian world where only the real guilty get punished. On the contrary giving more power to a corrupt State, where injustice is the norm and justice is an exception, especially for the poor and marginalized sections of society, is like axing one's own feet and finishing off whatever little freedoms and civil liberties are left.

It needs to be understood, if a State can protect criminals, then conversely it can also punish the innocent. Just to illustrate this point, how the Indian State functions and protect the criminals, one businessman Vinod Kumar, his brother in law Ashok Kumar, and driver Mukhtiyar Singh were kidnapped and killed by police about 24 years ago. From the media reports it appears the Police officer had some personal grudge against the businessman. The mother of the businessman, Amar Kaur probably out of shock, suffered a paralytic stroke and was on wheel chair for life. She had even written to the Chief Justice of High Court to speed up the trial so that she could get justice during her lifetime. But High Court simply did not care and continued to crawl at it's pathetically slow pace. Meanwhile the concerned police officer instead was promoted to the rank of DGP and the mother died after reaching over 100 years of age.

Was it a criminal nexus and conspiracy of judiciary and police? What is the lawful or moral legitimacy of such a "system"? Is it not reasonable to conclude the entire corrupt "system" including the corrupt judiciary works in tandem to protect the criminals? Then why such a "system" be given more power over your lives under any color or pretext? I do not know the answers at this moment, but every thinking citizen needs to ask himself or herself and search for answers. The concerned website for some unknown reason does not allow for copy and paste, therefore providing the link about this incident so that those who want to know the details may read it directly https://sikhsiyasat.net/2017/12/13/indi ... or-24-yrs/

Sir, Unable to contain the proliferation of crimes, particularly those heinous crimes committed against children, our policy-makers have passed the Death Penalty in a desperate move.

Death Penalty is not going to prevent the rape of children. Instead, it will further aggravate the severity of crime where the victim is killed to eliminate evidence by testifying.

Those familiar with the fundamentals of jurisprudence know that IT IS NOT THE SEVERITY OF PUNISHMENT THAT ACTS AS A DETERRENT, BUT ITS INEVITABILITY! The increasing number of rapes and murder of preteens even after the promulgation of the law is testimony to it.

Please post information related to guns and laws about arms act and other arms related issues only .

There are a lot of studies that havve been done on penalties and how they may or may not lower crime rates. I think that nothing has truly been proven on this. The point regarding unequal application of penalties to less-advantaged members of society is a valid one, I think.

However, regarding this question, I would say that, in some of these cases, there is no reason why the victim should ever have to worry about meeting up with an assailant again. This measure would guarantee that.

Also, removing such types from the overall gene pool of humanity cannot be a bad thing.

I'm for it.