Indians For Guns

Wonder if many others are as facinated as me with the venerable CJ3B which in a large part was THE only real 4x4 option in this country for decades? While 60% of my own off roading experience has been on Maruti Gypsys, about 40% has been using this fascinating little car.

For those of you who are unable to decipher this model code, the CJ3B is the short wheel base Jeep model which was manufactured in India by Mahindra and Mahindra (under license from Willys Overland Corp) and mostly supplied to the Indian Military. Besides the more visible differences from the WW II Jeeps - higher hood, different windshield design, different soft top frame design - this model also had certain mechanical improvements made to it that are not so visible, the chassis was modified slightly, the steering rod system was improved, and most importanly the improvements to the engine design which resulted in the "F head" or F4-134 Hurricane engine (this new engine was the basic cause for raising the hood as it would not fit in the earlier low hood body).

Of course it is a classic in every sense - read a royal pain in the a** to run and maintain - with teethnashing gear changes (nope, no syncromesh gears here! ) and fuel consumption figures which (considering todays petrol prices) can only be termed as "greedy", lousy brakes, a perfectly useless hand brake and last but not the least - an electrical system that will ensure frequent visits to the mechanic.

I owned one of these for 3 years and in spite of all the shortcoming listed above, I can safely say - its was a REAL BLAST TO DRIVE!!

In fact now that these are being phased out by the Indian military, I am tempted to get me another example of this all time classic before military surplus supplies dry out completely... and it might be a worthy project ironing out some of these faults with new or improved systems.

I'll be posting some of my experiences with the CJ3B on this thread, others please jump in and add yours too... Pictures are always welcome...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

"about 40% has been using this fascinating little car."

My friend, Jeeps are not cars. hehe.

I drive a WJ here (04 Grand Cherokee), have always wanted a CJ. CJs here in the US, are quite popular, and there are so many variants of the Wrangler CJ available today. I had the pleasure of riding in a Rubicon once, and its off road capabilities, are superb, to say the least.

I am not qualified to discuss technical aspects of Jeeps, especially the older CJs, but being a Jeep owner/enthusiast myself, thought I'd show my excitement.

Looking forward to your pictures and posts.

-Naren

I too am a fan of the CJ3B, I use a '52 model for my visits to the farm.
Real pleasure to drive off road.

Am on the lookout for old jeeps, would like to get my hand on one of the army surplus jeeps, kaizer's... saw a petrol army jeep in gujrat in v good conditions, was owner's pride, I drove it all over a semi dry river bed, superb fun....


Abhijeet,

After you have bought your CJ3B do let me know if you come across anything interesting, would look at a MM 4x4 with XDP engine too.


Sat

axp817 wrote:My friend, Jeeps are not cars. hehe.

Point taken! LOL

Ah, I've had the chance to drive the Grand Cherokee, is a lovely vehicle. This one had a 4 litre 6 cylinder engine, and took on the sands without a murmer! And the luxury of the car in comparison to the 4x4's I had driven till then, was simply sinful!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

sat wrote:Am on the lookout for old jeeps, would like to get my hand on one of the army surplus jeeps, kaizer's...

Hi Sat,

For Army surplus jeeps your best bet is to rope in a MLA or MP, they have a quota of 3 army surplus vehicles that they can have issued in their name. Earlier this quota was in much demand, but AFAIK these days most of these politicians quotas never get utilized. The process is as follows, once you have a willing MP/ MLA ask him to get a letter issued for availing the quota, take this letter along with required paperwork (don't forget the letter from the MP/MLA authorizing you to take delivery in his name) to the Army Central Vehicles Depot (CVD). There is one in Delhi Cantonment, which is where I'd picked up my CJ3B in '97. Now you will be taken to survey the available vehicles in the depot and make your choice. A good idea is to give the Army mechanic taking you on the survey a few hundred chips, so that he will point you to the most mechanically sound vehicles.

If some accessories/ parts are missing, strike a price with him and he will ensure that those are put in before you take delivery.

Payment is through bank draft. The process is lengthy but you will get the basic vehicle for under 30,000/- which will allow you to spend the rest of your money on doing it up the way you want, correcting any mechanical problems etc.

Another excellent choice would be to visit Dubwali on the Punjab/ Haryana border. This ENTIRE TOWN is a Jeep enthusiasts paradise. Every mechanic here specialises in and pretty much ONLY deals in Jeeps. You will find Jeeps of all vintages, petrol, diesel, CJ3B's, the older WW II Jeeps (harder to find and more expensive), the old Jeep Wagoneer (made in India briefly by Mahindra), the old Jeep FC (forward cab) pick up etc. You might even come across some of those Russian/ Soviet 4x4's that came into India in small numbers... but don't bet on being able to find parts for them!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

ISUZU DIESEL IN A CJ3B JEEP
===================

After purchasing my CJ3B in mid-97 I came to know that the Delhi Govt. was putting in place measures to restrict/ deny permission for converting existing petrol vehicles into diesel engined ones (these measures are now a fact and converted vehicles cannot be registered in Delhi). This along with the fact that pretty much everyone was egging me on, to replace the greedy petrol engine with a more frugal diesel, led me to make the first of what would be many trips to Mayapuri. Mayapuri for those not from Delhi, is one of Asia's biggest (if not THE biggest) junkyards, with plenty of old petrol and diesel engines available.

In those days, it was common practice for people to purchase old military surplus Jeeps and replace the original petrol engines with diesel ones. One of the most common choices was the Mahindra manufactured "Inter" DI engine. Basically an old design by International of USA built under license by Mahindra - initially for use in its tractors and later on used on many different models of Jeeps sold by them in the civilian market. This is a fairly underpowered and noisy engine, generating a vibrations that over a period of time tends to crack certain weak joints in the body of the Jeep (thankfully the chassis is sturdy enough not to be affected by this). The engine does have the advantage of being available brand new as well as second hand (widening the choice according to budget), it is also extremely frugal, fits into the vehicle with a minimal of modifications required - even the original gearbox and transfer case can be easily reused.

The other popular option was the Mahindra Peugeot XDP engine, once again a dated design manufactured by Mahindra under license in India - for use primarily in its range of civilian Jeeps. I believe a variant of this design is now being used to power the new Mahindra CJ5 type Jeeps being supplied to the Indian Army. In fact it is this very vehicle which along with limited numbers of the Maruti Gypsy has now replaced both the old CJ3B and the fantastic (for off road use) Jonga (a 60's Nissan Patrol manufactured under license at Govt. owned factories). The Peugeot engine is definitely smoother and less noisy in comparison to the DI "Inter" engine, as well as being a bit more powerful, even though it does consume a bit more fuel. This engine too fits into the vehicle with a minimal of modifications required - as with the "Inter" engine the original gearbox and transfer case can be easily reused.

Finally there was the option of buying one of the many second hand Japanese engines available - Nissan, Toyota, Isuzu, etc. These engines in their "as is" condition are usually good for at least 100,000 kms before requiring a major overhaul, are much smoother, more powerful and most come with 5 speed synchromesh gear boxes (some even have turbos, thus increasing the power even further). Since the Isuzu 2200 cc engines I came across shared a lot of parts with the Hindustan Motors Isuzu diesels (as sold with the Contessa and later Ambassador cars), I was leaning towards buying one of them, then I came across a 2500cc variant of the same engine, with a 5 speed gearbox and matched transfer case! Since I had no intention of throwing out the 4x4, this seemed like a good choice and I bought it on the spot.

The next two weeks were spent with me almost living at the Mechanics while he planned and executed this engine transplant. There were a couple of unforeseen problems that cropped up - first and most importantly, the geometry of the shafts coming out from the new transfer case did not match the placement of the front axle differential. This was solved by flipping the front axle, which meant the mountings for the leaf springs had to be un-welded from the axle and re-welded to match its new position. So now the front differential was towards the right hand side (as opposed to it being on the left earlier) this created a new and (for any kind of off road use) disturbing problem ? the engine oil filter and mounting was now directly above the differential and on heavy suspension travel (read BIG bumps) the differential would "knock" against the oil filter. This problem was solved by changing the oil filter bracket to a different type of design (making the filter point sideways as opposed to downwards) as well as raising the suspension by a few inches ? but as I was to find out over 3 years of off road use (and abuse) ? this was one solution that just DID NOT work! Of course this meant that the oil cooler had to go, another mistake (given our climatic conditions).

Anyhow, at the end of two weeks the new (and as I hoped) improved Jeep was ready. More on how it performed in the next post...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

mundaire wrote:

axp817 wrote:My friend, Jeeps are not cars. hehe.

Point taken! LOL

Ah, I've had the chance to drive the Grand Cherokee, is a lovely vehicle. This one had a 4 litre 6 cylinder engine, and took on the sands without a murmer! And the luxury of the car in comparison to the 4x4's I had driven till then, was simply sinful!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

That is the one I have, 4.0L straight 6. The other variant available when I bought it was 5.0L V8, but I decided to go with the straight 6 which was slightly cheaper and a little easier on gas too.

These days the biggest grand cherokee engine is a 6.1L SRT HEMI V8. What a beast that must be, considering that my 6 cyl. is a tank.

I used to drive a Ford Focus (looks like a Ford Ikon, slightly bigger engine, mine was 2.0L, I think) before I got the Jeep. We get some serious snow here, and the Jeep is an absolute tank in the snow.

The selec-trac transfer case on mine has 4 settings (2WD (rear wheel drive), 4 part time (front and rear wheels rotate in unison, differential locks front and rear axles, to use only on icy surfaces where turning isn't required), 4 full time (4 wheel drive, but front and rear wheels rotate independently can be used on tar surface), 4 LO (increases torque ratio in 4wd, for very uneven terrain and very low speeds)) which are fun to play with during (snow) storms.

It serves every need I have,

1. Serious snow manouvering capability
2. Big engine, lots of room for camping, hunting, shooting gear, rear seats fold down and theres enough room comparable to the bed of a small pickup truck
3. very smooth/comfortable drive, has most 'luxury' features that cars these days have


I don't think I will ever go back to driving a 'car'. Pics attached.








The ridiculous customs duties/taxes on automobiles in India is another issue that disappoints me, but discussion on that might be out of scope of this thread/forum.

Thanks,
Naren

Abhijeet,

Thank you for your informative post... have to get around the local MLA.

all the best..

Sat

Hows that for a coincidence ? We also have an `04 Grand Cherokee Limited. We liked our first one - a `96 - so much that when the time came for a new vehicle we replaced it with the latest version........we still have the old one though. First time we have ever replaced a vehicle with the same make and model. We`ll probably do the same when the time comes to replace the current car.......The only difference being that we`ll buy the version with the Mercedes 2.7 litre Turbo Diesel.
The CJ38 is NOT a car. It`s a means of getting from point a. to point b.............and even then should only be considered if you have a well padded backside and a no lower back problems whatsoever ! Performance is non-existant......even the b-awful Hummer is much quicker. CJ38s are great fun though.
Jeep Wranglers with the 4-litre straight 6 have remarakable accelleration - they can easily embarrass many sports cars.

John, I didn't know they made diesel Grand Cherokees until I checked the UK website after reading your post. Thats very interesting.

Also, mine is a Laredo. But I had the heated leather, roof, etc. put in to make it like a Limited.

Jeep out,
Naren

hi,

i am also a jeep freak. I have owned 3 jeeps and 1 gypsy in the past 8 years.

1) Second hand Mahindra 340 4WD soft top with 2.1 L Peugot Engine (older version of Mahindra Classic) - engine had only 62 BHP gave average of 10 kmpl and could touch 110 kmph

2) Second hand Mahindra 540 4WD Hard Top (belonged to the Ngo CARE) same engine as above and very ugly looking.

3) Brand New Mahindra (Major) 2WD soft top with 2.5 L DI engine producing 58 BHP, it gave milage of 15 kmpl and could touch 115 kmph

4) Second hand Maruti Gypsy 4WD soft top (not king)

off all these the gypsy was the most fun to drive and needed hardly any maintainece.

Of course i have never owned a cj3b style jeep and thats what i am thinking getting of right now.



rajat

axp817 - please forgive me, I can`t remember your name - The diesel Grand Cherokees are not available in the US. European market Jeeps are assembled at a Mercedes plant in Austria so the option of a diesel is a logical one. They used to offer an Italian made diesel in 2.5 and later 3.0 turbo specs - pretty much the same engine that was fitted in the early Land Rover Discoverys.......and not great ( inclined to bend pushrods. ) but the Mercedes engine they have fitted for the last couple of years or so is a good one. Performance is very similar to the 4 litre straight six petrol engine.

no worries, Grumpy. name is Naren, and thanks for the good info.

You`re welcome Naren. Considering the dramatic rise in US petrol prices ( I was amazed to see that they had gone up by almost a dollar a gallon in the last year ) I wouldn`t be surprised if many more diesel engined vehicles are offered in the US. Then you`ll be able to buy cars like Volkswagens Tuareg 4X4 with the 10 cylinder turbo diesel - 750 ft lbs of torque !!! Not to mention 150 MPH BMW twin turbo diesel saloons......
We`re used to high fuel costs in Europe - petrol ( and diesel ) is still MUCH more expensive here than in the US. Diesel engined cars have been popular in continental Europe for many years. They took a long time to take off in the UK but now account for something like 50 % of all new car sales. Which is one of the reasons that the petrol/electric hybrids - like the horrible Toyota Prius - aren`t selling too well in Europe.

yes, gas prices have gone up a lot. Back when I first got my Ford Focus, gas cost $1.57/gallon and I got twice the mileage. Life was good.

But gas prices have been on a slight decline since last week, I filled my tank today for $2.59/gallon.

Diesel is even more expensive though, was $2.80 a gallon today, so don't know if it makes a difference here.

The Touareg is a pretty sweet vehicle, I'd take it in diesel, or gas/petrol.