Indians For Guns

The BJP Government in UP led by Yogi Adityanathji has ordered strong action against criminals. It is already yielding good results. Since this Government’s coming to power, about 6 months ago 420 encounters with criminals have taken place.15 criminals on whom rewards had been announced earlier have been shot dead and 80 have received bullet injuries and are currently in custody. In handling of these criminals. Two police officials have lost their life and 88 received injuries.

It is very encouraging to see that the UP Police have at last master the courage to make proper use of the INSAS, SLR, and imported Glock 9 mm pistols , augmented by the IOF made 9mm pistols and SMS carbines that have been acquired at great public expense. They are no longer afraid of the Human Rights Commission .This has obviously been possible due to the assurance they must have received from the Government. It is a very welcome development and may certainly bring an improvement in the crime situation of the State. I hope other State Governments will now become more proactive in the use of firearms.

The very fact of Government encouraging the police to use fire arms against criminals and agreeing to stand up against all those who advocate a silk gloves approach is a very positive development for all those who stand for right to firearms.Let us hope this trend continues to develop.

I agree to disagree.The first step towards crime control is registration of FIRs on complaints. The second step is to do proper investigation and arrest accused based on that. Both these factors are shamelessly non existent in U.P. POLICE. Organized gangs don't simply vanish after encounters. Unorganized criminals like snatchers, car jackers, rapists are absolutely impossible to nab before crime. What is widespread news in the media is totally not the reality. UP police is more corrupt than before. UP has utter lawlessness. My right to keep a firearms is thus most important in such scenario. But sadly even that is not available in this state.

Hi Indiaone,

I was born and brought up in Allahabad U.P. Trust me it would take sometime before the things can be appreciated out there. Either they don't do anything or incase they do it is done on explicit manner.
UP is a big state controlling the same single handedly is tough. Even the Network teams of Telecom operators divide it into East & West U.P. Hope we understand its importance some day.

Regards
dh

While the general public may innocently welcome any news which points towards police taking action against criminals, please do keep the following in mind:-

1) "Encounter killings" are nothing but extra-judicial murder, subverting the whole process of law which is supposed to protect the innocent.

2) The Judicial system exists to protect the innocent and not to punish the guilty, the idea is that no innocent should unnecessarily suffer even if this means allowing a few guilty parties get away - the principle is "innocent until proven guilty" (though to be frank lately many Indian laws are blatantly flouting this principle).

3) This is different from justice meted out by mobs which focus on vengeance and perceived guilt most usually working on the premise of "guilty unless proven innocent".

4) There is a sound reason behind the separation of Magisterial/ Judicial powers from Executive powers (in this case the executive agency would be the Police). This division of powers prevents any one agency acting as Judge, Jury and Executioner. Unfortunately (due to reasons of expediency) we have already done away with the system of "Jury of ones peers" (soon after independence) - these types of killings go on to remove even the judiciary from the picture, thus any possible chance of a "fair trial" for the accused.

5) When such mandates are given to the police forces, they almost always turn toward widespread abuse of power with many innocents being victimised. One does not have to look too far back to read about multiple instances of abuse from across many Indian states, at times when the executive branch of those states decided to take such "shortcuts to crime control".

A recent judgement of the hon'able Supreme Court of India on this issue https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/en ... cvxaP.html

I agree that that there is a desperate need for (a long overdue) massive overhaul of our law enforcement system. This would include changes to IPC, CrPC, widespread police reform, reform of the Judicial system including (but not limited to) judicial procedure. The process needs to begin now!

In the meantime, governments taking such shortcuts does no one any good.

I agree to your perview whole heartedly.
To people like us whose knowledge might be limited to media flashes will not be able to see whole story behind it and are bound to judge the incident on the limited resources available.

Also would like to add - If I don't maintain an equipment ( system) on regular basis I am bound dissect (take harsh action) the equipment while overhauling.

Regards
dh

Hi guys,

I believe that the terror of Law Enforcement Agencies in the hearts of criminals is the most important thing. Yes, extra judicial killings are another crime. But we need such steps right now to fill the hearts of gangsters and other criminals with the terror and later as situation begin to improve, more effort on law enforcement. No one can curb the crime with love. But one thing is clear the Yogi Government's attitude is serious toward this mess being faced by UP.

Regards.

mundaire wrote:While the general public may innocently welcome any news which points towards police taking action against criminals, please do keep the following in mind:-

1) "Encounter killings" are nothing but extra-judicial murder, subverting the whole process of law which is supposed to protect the innocent.

2) The Judicial system exists to protect the innocent and not to punish the guilty, the idea is that no innocent should unnecessarily suffer even if this means allowing a few guilty parties get away - the principle is "innocent until proven guilty" (though to be frank lately many Indian laws are blatantly flouting this principle).

3) This is different from justice meted out by mobs which focus on vengeance and perceived guilt most usually working on the premise of "guilty unless proven innocent".

4) There is a sound reason behind the separation of Magisterial/ Judicial powers from Executive powers (in this case the executive agency would be the Police). This division of powers prevents any one agency acting as Judge, Jury and Executioner. Unfortunately (due to reasons of expediency) we have already done away with the system of "Jury of ones peers" (soon after independence) - these types of killings go on to remove even the judiciary from the picture, thus any possible chance of a "fair trial" for the accused.

5) When such mandates are given to the police forces, they almost always turn toward widespread abuse of power with many innocents being victimised. One does not have to look too far back to read about multiple instances of abuse from across many Indian states, at times when the executive branch of those states decided to take such "shortcuts to crime control".

A recent judgement of the hon'able Supreme Court of India on this issue https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/en ... cvxaP.html

I agree that that there is a desperate need for (a long overdue) massive overhaul of our law enforcement system. This would include changes to IPC, CrPC, widespread police reform, reform of the Judicial system including (but not limited to) judicial procedure. The process needs to begin now!

In the meantime, governments taking such shortcuts does no one any good.

To say that all "encounter killings" are extrajudicial murders is a way heavy expression .

Law itself authorises use of brute force in appropriate cases .

See yours other post -which mentions a pathetic scenario.

http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=25054

Secondly , Fugitive criminals do have option to surrender before a Court of Law to avoid running risk of police encounters .

Hi Woods,

There is an provision to surrender thats true.

There is a difference between thieve and an extortionist. While we pass on the ball these thieves become extortionist or murderer.
Had we taken the ownership at the initial stage the last minute turbulance could be avoided.

Regards
dh

The role of police is not about instilling terror but lodge FIR, investigate impartially, arrest the accused and present them to courts for judgment, enforcing the law. If the situation is so pathetic that police has to take law in it's own hands and indulge in terrorism on citizens, then the State itself is illegitimate. It is a sign of a failed rouge or terrorist State. Some States indulge in terrorism across the borders, some cowardly States indulge in terrorism within the borders on their own citizens.

"encounter killings" are nothing but euphemism in media for extra judicial murders by police. The police arrests the accused and shoots in cold blood and then pass off the matter as "encounter". Then they usually get medals of "bravery" and promotions. In real encounters the police also die or at least get injured. But in these stage managed "encounters" only the so called criminals die and nothing happen to police.

Law does not authorize the use of brute or disproportionate force under any circumstances. Law authorizes only the use of proportionate force.

The accused do have the option to surrender before court but that does not authorize the police to indulge in stage managed encounters.

Quoting below from an old post dated November 2011 (see viewtopic.php?t=15910 )

See http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... est-number

The figures in the above article translate into 4.33 citizens dying in custody per day! These figures do not include extra-judicial police killings aka "encounter killings". So even if we discount encounter killings and assume that all such custodial deaths were reported accurately, it basically means that you are 2.5 times more likely to be knocked off by the cops (in custody) than by a licensed gun owner!

Do these statistics seem like they belong in a free country?

Cheers!
Abhijeet

In a recent interview to the media, CM of UP stated that 500 criminals have cancelled their bail and gone back to jail.He also stated that the present policy of useing firearms against known criminals will continue.This is a very bold step at a time when human rights activists are always making noise on behald of the criminals. We hope CMs of all other crime prone States follow the example of UP Chief Minister.

This shows the Indian State is becoming or has become a failed rouge state, with no respect to due process of law. It's citizens who are at the moment accused only(not criminals) in the court of law, they have to cancel bail, their lives are not safe in direct violation of Article 21 of the Constitution which guarantees that life and liberty will not be deprived without due process of law. History tells that when these type of things happen, countdown to the balkanization, death and destruction of political empires begin. Good luck to the future of Indian State/ empire which is actually the de facto creation of the British empire, and dished out on a platter to the worthies of ruling elite on 15.08.1947, due to financial bankruptcy of British Empire in second world war.

The State as such has not failed and is functioning. There has been institutional breakdown in several sectors due to misrule of last six decades. Article 21 can wait for a better time. We have to first set the machinery in order., so that all the institutions of our democratic machinery function properly.

The State does not always display complete failure overnight. It is a gradual process which can take a few years or few decades. All the local, geo political, economic, social ingredients are very much present. For example failure of the Mughal State did not happen overnight but the foundation of it's destruction was laid by the arrogantly stupid policies of Aurangzeb. It's collapse started during his time and collapsed for all practical purposes within five or six decades after his death. Same history is repeating itself again in a slightly different context with unforeseen consequences. The Kashmir, Punjab, north eastern states, areas controlled by Maoists are already gone with the wind. It won't take long for the southern states to also wake up and follow the direction of the wind. The formidable China Pakistan axis has already surrounded the Indian State on all sides. Yes till then the Constitution or it's Article 21 or it's pretensions of rule of law can wait, and that too in complete violation of the law laid down by the wisdom of Supreme Court. Doesn't all this represent a State failure or rogue State that does not even respect laws laid down by it's own Supreme Court?