Indians For Guns

I think it's finally time to move up (in size at least) from my venerable Maruti 800. She's till got a lot of heart and she has been to places and done things many a 4WD user may never even have seen or imagined possible. Unfortunately, with me taking up fishing and the kids begining to join me on outings, I find she just doesn't have the space for rods, a bit of camp gear and some provisions for a couple of days. I also have a fourteen day mini-fishing expedition coming up in February with a friend from England and he is one big bloke.

I have narrowed my choices down to a Mahindra Bolero (new or second hand), Mahindra Scorpio (second hand) and a Ford Fusion (petrol or diesel - new or second hand).

The Ford is attractive at it's new price and would make a good compromise between a city and outdoor car....or so I think - I have yet to visit the showroom. The diesel version is to be launched later this year but it may price itself out. Since I only average about 10,000 kms a year, it does not have that much of an advantage over the petrol version. The latter would also give the pep that I am not averse to. It has an excellent ground clearance of 198mm, compared to 200mm for the Bolero and 185 for the Scorpio. Whilst ground clearance is important, it's how you drive on rough tracks that matters.

The Scorpio seems to have become an Indian icon but is it really worth it?

The Bolero seems to be the best value for money but I would like to hear from those chaps who have used one. Has the build quality improved appreciably?

Will probably pose more questions as they occur.

Abhijeet, just seen the new board layout and it looks very good. Hopefully, it should attract a lot more members. Thanks and well done.

Mack The Knife

Mack The Knife Bana wrote:I have narrowed my choices down to a Mahindra Bolero (new or second hand), Mahindra Scorpio (second hand) and a Ford Fusion (petrol or diesel - new or second hand).

From the point of view of depreciation, the first two choices seem better. As you can find out by visiting any second hand dealer, Mahindras have a much better resale price compared to any Ford Model. Also the Ford Fusion is not exactly setting the sales charts on fire - always a bad sign for when you want to sell your car after a few years of use. This is always an important consideration when buying a new car, as a large % of the cost of ownership is the yearly depreciation of its value.

Moving on to the more practical aspects of owning an off road vehicle. Both the Bolero and Scorpio are under powered and have inadequate torque for any kind of serious off road use. The 4-Wheeler's Bible, Jim Allen's invaluable reference book for off-road technique, tools and specs, gives this summary of how to evaluate how much torque you need: "How much is adequate? It's all related to engine torque versus the weight of the vehicle. If you take the rated engine torque and divide it into the curb weight, you will get the torque-to-weight ratio. Anything much over 20:1 is generally inadequate. The upper teens are acceptable, the middle teens are good, the lower teens are great, and under 10:1 is probably overkill."

Of course, in this respect the Scorpio has relatively more oomph than the Bolero. It also offers better milage (an important factor for many buyers). The initial models of the Scorpio suffered from problems with their brake system and suspension. Under heavy braking the car had a tendency to sway which in some cases would cause the driver to loose control and even topple the car. I believe this issue has now been rectified, though am not sure - as I have not driven the newer model (which has these required mods).

The Bolero does win in terms of value for money (it comes with aircon, power windows, power steering, central locking and a decent stereo as standard fitments), more space and cheap servicability. It is shipped with a 2.5 litre variant of the Mahindra Peugeot Diesel engine which has been around for eons and therefore any small town Jeep mechanic should be able to take care of it.

Also DO NOT forget that the 4x4 models of both the Bolero & Scorpio (the standard fare is 2 wheel drive to the rear wheels), cost substantially more . I think the price difference may be as much as INR 60,000 for this option. You can check with the dealer for exact prices. AFAIK both cars (when shipped with the 4x4 option) DO NOT have independant front suspension, using a solid front axle with leap springs instead of the 2 wheel variants which have coil springs and independant front suspension. So the ride comfort might suffer somewhat.

In my humble opinion none of the vehicles mentioned by you are suitable for serious off road use. But then again most people who by 4x4 vehicles seldom if ever put their vehicles through any more abuse than to drive it on a dirt track.

But if you wish to do more with your car, do give some serious thought to a second hand Maruti Gypsy (ideally the 1.3 litre "king" version). You can fit it with a CNG\LPG gas kit (if you wish to save money on petrol), it is cheap to maintain and is the most cost-effective and practical (to own & run, except for the milage issue) 4x4 in the country. As with most cars in India it too is under powered (the 1.3 less so), but if you really want to take on those sand dunes or get deep into mud - its your best bet! Needless to say, different terrain requires different tires... what works on sand will get you stuck in mud and vice versa!

And thanx for the kudos Hope everyone finds the new additions useful.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Is it rated engine torque/curb weight or curb weight/torque?

e.g. For a vehicle with 230 ft.lbs. of torque and a curb weight of 1809 kgs., would the ratio be 1809/230?

good info. in your post, Abhijeet.

thanks,
N

Abhijeet,

The new layout segments topics much more and should make it easier for members to -post topics in relevant forums. Very nice and thanks for the improvements!

Mehul

Kinda related.

Where Land Rovers never die :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5256278.stm

Maybe you can find a good Rover there.

Rusty, how about Tata Sumo/Safari, those look menacing to me. My only exposure with a Sumo was when I rented one for a company picnic to Goa from Dharwad. It was a great trip I'll remember and the Sumo was a nice ride too.

Mack The Knife,

You can also consider a second hand Chevy Forester.You could get one for a good price as they are not in great demand.

Have used Sarkari Gypsy's and Mahindra Jeeps.Both are uncomfortable to travel in on broken roads and if the supension is not up to the mark can shake the filling in your teeth and give you a head ache and an aching back in a very short time.Boleros have an irritanting drone while travelling on the high way.

Ford Fusion is not a very good vehicle.It does not have a very good ride.

Love the new lay out Abhijeet.

Take care,
penpusher

Is the Ford Fusion sold in India the same as the MAzda6/Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan/Lincoln Zephyr? If it is that car, it is a superb vehicle. There are many in the US and I have never heard a bad word about any of them. Ford, though, has the bad habit of using the same name for completely different cars in different markets - hence this question.

Mehul

From the point of view of depreciation, the first two choices seem better. As you can find out by visiting any second hand dealer, Mahindras have a much better resale price compared to any Ford Model.

No arguements there. A friend bought an Escort for 9'ish in '97 and only got 1.25 for it in '01. However, I don't think I could afford to change a car every two or three years. This in turn brings out doubts about whether the spares for the Fusion would be available 5 to 10 years down the line.

Also the Ford Fusion is not exactly setting the sales charts on fire - always a bad sign for when you want to sell your car after a few years of use. This is always an important consideration when buying a new car, as a large % of the cost of ownership is the yearly depreciation of its value.

That was probably due to it's earlier price, though I doubt if even the revised price would make much of a difference.

Moving on to the more practical aspects of owning an off road vehicle. Both the Bolero and Scorpio are under powered and have inadequate torque for any kind of serious off road use.

I should clarify here that I am not a mud plugger. Infact I try and avoid it as far as possible. It's just that our outdoor activities throw bad tracks in our path and it would be nice to have something that could tackle such a situation. I am probably outdoors two weekends in a month. The rest of the time it will be used like any other city car. Which is why I would like something with a good turning radius, is easy to park, etc. but at the same time should be able to accomodate a weekends worth of outdoor gear.

I saw and test drove the Fusion last evening. Not bad at all. The boot is quite adequate and since the rear seat has a 60:40 split, I find that I get adequate storage space with the '40' seat folded down. The '60' is wide enough to accomodate both the boys (and still be belted in) for another few years at least, after which one of them can sit in front with me. What I did not like is the lack of provision for a roof carrier. Whilst this car is currently high on my list, if I can not find an aftermarket fix for a roof carrier, I may have to reluctantly ditch it. It's current on road price is Rs.658,608.00 Depreciation and re-sale value apart I think it makes a damn good city, highway and outdooorish vehicle. There is the Fiat Adventure but then again we all know what their after sales are like.

I also went across to the Mahindra showroom (thankfully in the same complex) but they did not have a demo Bolero or Scorpio. The on road price for the base model Scorpio is Rs.850,367.00 and I just can't stretch that far. A good second hand version between 4.5 to 6 lakhs is still on the cards though.

The on road prices for the Boleros SLX DI 2WD, SLX 4WD and Sportz DI 2WD are Rs.691,057,.00, Rs.741,412.00 and 626893.00 respectively.

Neither of them offer much in the way of boot space over the Fusion but I can add a roof rack and they are diesel vehicles. The base model Sportz was a bit agricultural but then again, I drive an old 800, so shouldn't be turning my nose up.

Also DO NOT forget that the 4x4 models of both the Bolero & Scorpio (the standard fare is 2 wheel drive to the rear wheels), cost substantially more . I think the price difference may be as much as INR 60,000 for this option.

More like 1 lakh plus, Abhijeet and there is a two to three month wait for 4WDs since the factory makes them to order. These are also difficult to come by second hand because they account for approximately 1% of the Scorpio sales at this outlet.

In my humble opinion none of the vehicles mentioned by you are suitable for serious off road use. But then again most people who by 4x4 vehicles seldom if ever put their vehicles through any more abuse than to drive it on a dirt track.

I agree and this is why I have been thinking of buying a second hand Gypsy for outdoor use and either retian the 800 or get a new but cheapish hatch for city use. However, I am told that getting a good Gypsy at a reasonable price is extremely difficult. Would you know of any?

But if you wish to do more with your car, do give some serious thought to a second hand Maruti Gypsy (ideally the 1.3 litre "king" version). You can fit it with a CNG\LPG gas kit (if you wish to save money on petrol), it is cheap to maintain and is the most cost-effective and practical (to own & run, except for the milage issue) 4x4 in the country.

Only problem wih the CNG cylinder is that it eats into the boot space, which isn't much to start with. If I could get a cylinder that goes under the rear seat, then that would be much better.

Many thanks for all the pointers.

Mack The Knife

Where Land Rovers never die :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5256278.stm

Maybe you can find a good Rover there.

I'd love to get my hands on one but spares could prove a problem and they aren't exactly reliable.

Rusty, how about Tata Sumo/Safari, those look menacing to me.

I have already contacted them and should have a fax from them later in the day. Apparently they have reduced the prices on the older 90 bhp Safaris.

Thanks.

Mack The Knife

You can also consider a second hand Chevy Forester.You could get one for a good price as they are not in great demand.

Now here's one I hadn't thought off. How much do these sell for second hand?

Boleros have an irritanting drone while travelling on the high way.

Have only taken one outdoor trip in a Bolero but cannot recall this drone you mention. Did it by any chance have mud and snow tyres?

Ford Fusion is not a very good vehicle.It does not have a very good ride.

I only have a few minutes experience with this car, so cannot really comment, except that I found the handling and acceleration to be good. The build quality seemed to be a notch below my wife's Opel but still very acceptable. The ride at the back was a bit Scorpioish but not so bad - deliberately went over and had my friend go over potholes. I guess the ride could always be improved by replacing the low profile tyres with something a little more appropriate. On what experience do you base your comments?

Thanks.

Mack The Knife

mehulkamdar wrote:Ford, though, has the bad habit of using the same name for completely different cars in different markets - hence this question.
Mehul

I'm afraid they have been at it again.

Here's a link to the India specific Ford Fusion.

http://www.india.ford.com/servlet/Conte ... &c=DFYPage

Mack The Knife

Mack The Knife Bana wrote:I should clarify here that I am not a mud plugger. Infact I try and avoid it as far as possible. It's just that our outdoor activities throw bad tracks in our path and it would be nice to have something that could tackle such a situation. I am probably outdoors two weekends in a month. The rest of the time it will be used like any other city car. Which is why I would like something with a good turning radius, is easy to park, etc. but at the same time should be able to accomodate a weekends worth of outdoor gear.

Then the Gypsy is probably not the vehicle for you. It has a horrible turning radius and no power steering option. For that matter even though they do have power steering the Scorpio and Bolero and not easy cars to squeeze into tight parking spots either!

Mack The Knife Bana wrote:I saw and test drove the Fusion last evening. Depreciation and re-sale value apart I think it makes a damn good city, highway and outdooorish vehicle. There is the Fiat Adventure but then again we all know what their after sales are like.

The ONLY outdoorish feature that the Fusion and Fiat Adventure have is slightly raised ground clearance!

Mack The Knife Bana wrote:I also went across to the Mahindra showroom (thankfully in the same complex) but they did not have a demo Bolero or Scorpio. The on road price for the base model Scorpio is Rs.850,367.00 and I just can't stretch that far. A good second hand version between 4.5 to 6 lakhs is still on the cards though.

The on road prices for the Boleros SLX DI 2WD, SLX 4WD and Sportz DI 2WD are Rs.691,057,.00, Rs.741,412.00 and 626893.00 respectively.

Neither of them offer much in the way of boot space over the Fusion but I can add a roof rack and they are diesel vehicles. The base model Sportz was a bit agricultural but then again, I drive an old 800, so shouldn't be turning my nose up.

Do try and avoid the second hand Scorpios - due to the braking issues I had mentioned. Or if you do buy one, don't drive fast on Highways!

Mack The Knife Bana wrote:I agree and this is why I have been thinking of buying a second hand Gypsy for outdoor use and either retian the 800 or get a new but cheapish hatch for city use. However, I am told that getting a good Gypsy at a reasonable price is extremely difficult. Would you know of any?

I gave away my own Gypsy ('96 Model, wide track with a factory hard top) for FREE to a cousin (this incidentally means that for the first time in decades we have no 4x4 at home )! And this car was in excellent condition, what I have seen of second hand Gypsy prices in Delhi - I find it hard to believe that they could be very expensive anywhere! Do avoid ex-rally Gypsys like the plague though... they simply spell trouble!

And oh! As Sukpreet pointed out in his reply to this post, the ride comfort for rear seat passengers is not very "nice", of course if you have a troublesome ma 'in law this could be a blessing in disguise... take her for an offroad ride (with her in the back seat of course) just kidding LOL

Jokes apart, from what you have described of your usage pattern, anything with a decent ground clearance should work for you. That opens up the possibility of picking up a second hand Toyota Qualis - a very practical and trouble free car I would like to point out. There is a good reason why it was the number one choice for people running call centre/ taxi fleets...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

I don?t have much experience but would second abhijeet?s choice of used Toyota Qualis. My cousins have Scorpio and Bolero. Scorpio is much better finish product compared to Bolero but space inside is bit cramped. Qualis I found is more spacious, especially when hauling three person luggage from airport and as Abhijeet mentioned taxi drivers are really impressed by its durability. The chap who drives Bolero has a poultry farm and uses it is as a daily use vehicle also. He is quite satisfied with its performance. My choice Qualis used and then Bolero. All the best

Abhijeet,

I am told that the reason for the increase in Gypsy prices is their current popularity in smaller towns. Fitted with a gas kit ofcourse.

The ONLY outdoorish feature that the Fusion and Fiat Adventure have is slightly raised ground clearance!

In that case what would a 2WD Scorpio or Bolero have to offer over the Fusion? Perceived ruggedness or are they genuinely so?

Do try and avoid the second hand Scorpios - due to the braking issues I had mentioned. Or if you do buy one, don't drive fast on Highways!

A second hand Scorp is probably what I would end up getting. If so, I will be changing the brakes. A friend, the chap who owns the Mahindra dealership, did that on his, so it is possible. I need to find out the price though.

Yes, a Qualis would be worth looking at.

Mack The Knife

Rutam,

Quote:
You can also consider a second hand Chevy Forester.You could get one for a good price as they are not in great demand.


Now here's one I hadn't thought off. How much do these sell for second hand?

If your budget is less than 8 lakhs then you can rule this out.Sell for about 9-10 lakhs.

Quote:
Boleros have an irritanting drone while travelling on the high way.


Have only taken one outdoor trip in a Bolero but cannot recall this drone you mention. Did it by any chance have mud and snow tyres?

Normal tyres and the drive was of about 1hr15 min.Maybe something wrong with that vehicle if you have not encountered this problem with other vehicles.

On what experience do you base your comments?

Went as a passenger in somebodies Fusion to a village.Was not a very comfortable drive,the broken roads did not help one bit.


How about the TATA Pickup? Fiat's service seems to have improved after its tie up with TATA. Fiat Adventure would be cheap to buy.Just take an expert along and don't buy one with electrical problems.Maruti Baleno Altura?? At one time they were selling pre-owned cars with a company warranty.Being a Maruti,should be easy to maintain despite the fact that its no longer made and most of the ones I have seen are in a fairly decent shape.

Had travelled in a TATA Indica on an inspection of flood protection works ( Dhusi Bandhs/earth bandhs) after a heavy downpour and had no problems.

Take care,
penpusher