Indians For Guns

Government mulls lifetime validity of arms licences
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 130786.cms via @timesofindia

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Interestingly, the home minister has shot down a demand by women and child development minister Maneka Gandhi to bring airguns under the licensing regime. As per the draft rules, acquisition of airguns with muzzle energy under 20 joules or 15 feet or 0.177 mm will not require an arms licence.

However, firearm replicas, paintball markers and blank firing firearms will be brought under the definition of arms.

One step forward, two steps backward. Typical us.

What is it gonna be for owners of ARs not fulfilling the above criteria?? [DISAPPOINTED FACE]

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Every one want to give positive statements, but no one wants to do anything about it. That is the purpose of having politicians in our country.


Atul

pradeep2374 wrote:What is it gonna be for owners of ARs not fulfilling the above criteria?? [DISAPPOINTED FACE]

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What will happen?

1) Well, they will be treated as firearms and anyone possessing any such airgun without an arms license for the same will be treated at par with someone possessing an illegal firearm! Also, each one of them will count towards the legal limit of 3 firearms (max).

2) Since many people who own airguns already own firearms, they will face a tough choice - either declare & deposit (read "have confiscated") their expensive airguns OR simply hide them from the authorities and break the law! This rule will create a whole new class of criminals, where none existed before. Some of them will get caught and be sent to jail - for possession of airguns!! Needless to say, when they come out of jail in 3-7 years time, they will likely be hardened criminals and/ or emotionally scarred for life.

3) Since it will be next to impossible to train all enforcement personnel as to the meaning of what exactly 20 Joules/ 15 ft.lbs means and how to measure it - anyone who has in their possession an airgun which is NOT .177 cal, is almost certain to face harassment from the authorities.

4) Since none of the small scale airgun manufacturers has the capability to manufacture .177 cal barrels, they will likely go out of business very soon. Because, once .20, .22 & .25 airgun owners start facing harassment, people will stop buying airguns in these calibres.

5) You can very soon look forward to headlines of some poor kid being arrested for being in possession of a .22 airgun (the most common calibre in India). The poor innocent child will be sent to some reform home for at least a few weeks/ months - the time it will take to forensically test for 20 Joules power. Needless to say, he/ she will come out of this episode with emotionally and mentally scarred for life.

All airgun owners should prepare themselves for a world of pain and harassment.

This is an ill thought out provision, to say the very least. It will be next to impossible to enforce and will make criminals out of honest citizens. The same applies to licensing for blank firing guns and replicas.

Regards,
Abhijeet

Hello,

As far as Airguns go, wouldn't the liability for clearly stating the legal requirement for possessing a particular airgun rest with the manufacturer, just like a food manufacturer must put information?

Similiarly, if a product is being sold and required a licence, and is not marked as such, the manufacturer and dealer will both be liable. I would assume that one would first need to get it on the licence before buying. So just like I can't walk into an arms dealer and buy a .22 rifle, I wouldn't be able to buy an airgun from him unless I either have a licence or the gun satisfies criteria...

But its stupid as there is no clarity on what happens to existing owners.

and PAINTBALL?!?!?!?!?!?!? oh the intellectual genius of law makers... !!! words fail me.

I can understand something looking like a gun, but a paintball gun looks like a bloody pichkari.. will they outlaw those soon???

~C

Chandan22 wrote:I can understand something looking like a gun

How? How does something become a firearm, simply because it looks like one? Will we now have motor vehicle license plates for cut-outs of cars made out of plywood? There are tons of kids toys which look like guns, some pretty realistic looking, why do we need to license them?

If it cannot shoot a projectile, how can it be defined as a firearm? Why license them?

Hi Abhijeet,

It is indeed a very grim scenario! However, since AR's made in India are anyways 12 FPE or lower even .22 cal- would dealers/manufacturers not be able to certify the same in writing for a customer (even for older models) to avoid such harassment from the authorities?

in fact the govt is strengthening its power to limit arms (either airgun, airsoft and even blanks) to the maximum extent. Today getting AL is a mission impossible task. Registeering airgun and getting license will kill the sport for ever...

The next update in this regards will be soon coming..... Diwali guns and Holi Water Spray gun are next to include in the mandatory license list...

SMJ wrote:Hi Abhijeet,

It is indeed a very grim scenario! However, since AR's made in India are anyways 12 FPE or lower even .22 cal- would dealers/manufacturers not be able to certify the same in writing for a customer (even for older models) to avoid such harassment from the authorities?

That is not the point, the fact is that there are millions of airguns in India. The vast majority of these are in .22 cal, with a few in .20 & .25 cal as well.

If we are simply talking about marking guns as 20 Joules, every single person will just go out and get 20 Joules etched on his airgun - BUT that is neither here nor there!

Laws must be made to serve a public purpose AND satisfy the test of logic as well as whether or not they can actually be enforced.

Considering the Indian scenario, a rational approach could have been to say that airguns up to .25 cal will not be considered as firearms and thus free from all licensing requirements, as is done in Austria. Or we could have taken the Brazilian model and set the limit at .22 cal/ 5.6mm. Either way, that would actually have been easy to understand and enforce as well as caused the least amount of disruption and distress to all stakeholders.

Setting an energy limit in a country like India is going to cause rampant corruption, harassment and persecution of innocents.

The licensing of replicas, blank firing guns, paintball markers is so ridiculous that I won't even venture any comment on that.

Regards,
Abhijeet

The airgun manufacturers presenting a joint memorandum to the home ministry against this proposed rule saying loss of business and employment and the exposing the boneheaded logic could be effective.

thats a very valid point that you have raised Abhijeet, air gun owners will have tough time. Police cant differentiate between airgun and rifle, forget being able to differentiate between replica and airgun. These will cause total chaos and obvious local gun manufacturer will also face music from the authorities and will be excellent breeding ground for corruption and rampant blackmails.
God help this country

Another underlying point is that the Additional License to Family Members issued to use the same firearm held by a family member is an attempt to abide by the UNITED NATIONS Disarmament policy and restrict the number of guns in the hands of the citizens . Now any body who may have a family member who is a license holder will be denied a fresh license and only be issued an addition to the existing license. This will be highly impractical and restrictive to citizens who may want to individually excercise the right to own a firearm and be self reliant . It will do nothing but lead to denials of Arms Licenses to applicants whose family members are licensed gun owners.

captrakshitsharma wrote:Another underlying point is that the Additional License to Family Members issued to use the same firearm held by a family member is an attempt to abide by the UNITED NATIONS Disarmament policy and restrict the number of guns in the hands of the citizens . Now any body who may have a family member who is a license holder will be denied a fresh license and only be issued an addition to the existing license. This will be highly impractical and restrictive to citizens who may want to individually excercise the right to own a firearm and be self reliant . It will do nothing but lead to denials of Arms Licenses to applicants whose family members are licensed gun owners.

May be the additional license would make things simpler, as getting an additional license may not be too difficult a task.

Now let us look at how the LA works. They basically have three points to consider, as follows.

1. Establish the identity of the applicant. (identity, address proof etc.)
2. Confirm eligibility. (Not a criminal, not a threat to society, neighbors verification etc)
3. Establish the justification of need for the weapon.

Therefore, getting the first license is a long process but after getting that, one need to apply on a plain paper for additional weapons. That is a much faster process if you can justify the need for additional weapons, because the point 1 & 2 have already been established.
Hence, getting an additional license should be much simpler because a gun already exists in the house and is accessible to all the family members.
Thereafter, it would be another simple process to justify the need for an independent license, like the license holder has to travel around, the other members have their own jobs etc.

But I am not waiting for it to happen, as I have been postponing the application for licenses for my wife and daughter, due to my lethargy and the thought of the cost involved in buying 6 more guns. Now is the time to go ahead and apply straight away before any new stupid rule is implemented.

Atul

So, what can we as air gunners do to handle such situation if (or when) it arises?