Indians For Guns

Folks I'm sure you would have been reading and seeing about this over the past few days.
Here's a map for understanding what happened exactly:


Looking at the guts of this Govt. and (un)preparedness of IA, I think this issue would be dumped to the cold bag.
Chinese stay where they are (in their tents) and Indians stay where they are (also in their tents).
Though unacceptable, I think that is less worse than the Govt. secretly agreeing to some other Chinese demand for the latter to retreat.
This step by step creeping incursion has been taking place since 1986 due to the lack of Indian patrolling (partially because of rough terrain & poor infra, but still our land we ought to protect .. no excuses there).

Lets use this thread for discussion.

Regards,
Virendra

The Line of Actual Control is a variable line (unlike LOC which is fixed) and it is for the Indian forces to seize the opportunity and mark it.

But we are behaving as if we are scared of China.

It is China that should be scared with the balance of payments so skewed that if India stops buying from China because of this, they have a hell of a lot to loose.

Our leadership has no balls.

well historically chin chin bhai bhai long ago had claim to the area. now they would like it back along side AP as well. [do not forget the NE] also high ground for missels to fly from.

would agree that little give and take will be taking place very soon. as we are not fit to fight our chin chin bhais at the moment. heck we can hardly control our monkeis fighting in the Parliament

on the bright side our chin chin bhai can swap their dinners with the bhai bahi

Pusillaminuos,Piss poor, castrated Political leadership is to blame, If we dont take tough action like the Vietnamese who gave the Chinese a bloody nose, (the only language they understand) they will extend their claims to Andhra Pradesh, forget Arunachal! You can kiss it goodbye!

hvj1 wrote:Pusillaminuos,Piss poor, castrated Political leadership is to blame, If we dont take tough action like the Vietnamese who gave the Chinese a bloody nose, (the only language they understand) they will extend their claims to Andhra Pradesh, forget Arunachal! You can kiss it goodbye!

Briha

A pity, an army of lions but at the mercy of kittens.

Skyman wrote:A pity, an army of lions but at the mercy of kittens.

Well said Skyman. PISSPOOR political leadership as Hemantji pointed out. Reminds me of something I read" It is better to fight with an army of 100 sheep lead by a lion than an army of 100 lions lead by a sheep"

The "experts" here tell us that there is nothing to worry about; China is not historically an imperialistic or expansionist power. I wonder how they explain Tibet?

Anyway, it may be said that such events are "symbolic," and that's just what I worry about: That this sort of behavior will occur when bigger things are at stake, as well, and that is the worry.

With Chinese trade routes stretching all over the Indian Ocean to Africa and the Middle East, and with the regime's only claim to legitimacy being economic prosperity, you can bet that any notion of Chinese non-imperialistic tendencies has long ago flown out the window of expediency, if, indeed, it ever existed.

This is not a good sign.

the Vietnamese who gave the Chinese a bloody nose,

It is sad, but one must conclude that this seems to be the only sort of interaction that registers in some parts of the world.

The "experts" here tell us that there is nothing to worry about; China is not historically an imperialistic or expansionist power. I wonder how they explain Tibet?

Wonder what history books the experts are reading!! Must be something similar to that which claims Chinese ships sailed across the World centuries before Columbus and Magellan, in junks (there is a book which claims that, I'll try to recall the author, etc.)!!!

The Chinese are not overtly concerned about manpower losses. Remember in 1938 or 39, Generalissimo (aka big gangster) Chiang kai Shek decided to breach the Yangtse dikes to slow down the Japanese advance? 800,000 (yeah, 8 lakh) Chinese civvies died, drowned. The Japanese advance was slowed, by merely 5 months. I am not even going in detail into the instances from ancient history (scholars walled up in the great wall), or more recent ones (tanks rolling over peaceful protesters in Tianenmen square).

What we need now is not an eyeball to eyeball confrontation, but a bit of sacrifice involving our citizens giving up new toys and cellphones for a few months - economic boycott, like the Americans did on the Barbie doll lead poisoning issue.

Thank god that this thread has started..mr virendra the govt might be un-prepared or their may be lack of will on their part but so far as defence forces are concerned we all love chinese just given a chance..we all would love to have them...since 1962 a lot has to be settled...and forget any retrograde operation on our part...fortunately i have served in this very area for 6 months as a task force commander...and face-offs are regular affairs..but this time its a little far fetched...we are prepared to settle the score yes they are logistically better off yet believe me gentle men if our politicians give us a free hand they will bleed through their all holes in a conventional battle...members who have donned uniform for this country will agree with me...but first our spunk less politicians needs to be awakened from their slumber..

Sir, i ask that you tell us about our military preparedness in that sector.We often bemoan the state of things, but you can perhaps tell us how things really stand.Can we fight them off?

1. Inept leadership seeping down into lower officer ranks, recent incidents of flagrations between officers and soldiers being the most obvious examples of this rot.
2. Increased dissatisfaction amongst the soldiers about state of living, organizational support etc, showcased by examples of blue on blue frags, suicides in field areas, etc.
3. Increased corruption across all tiers of the armed forces hierarchy, starting from the recruiting officer taking money to get hopefuls recruited into the forces to chiefs taking money.
4. Political leadership too busy scamming and making money to sit and take notice of and act coherently towards challenges, internal and external.
5. Defence forces not having any decent equipment. And i am not even talking of arms and ammunition. Shoes, uniforms, food, medical supplies, vehicles, connectivity, etc lack far behind what is required.
Against this state of affairs, a chinese leadership with a coherent and long term plan towards neighbours, a sizeable and growing budget for the defence forces and ever improving levels of war materiel, supplies, infrastructure.
So much so, that a few decades back, the official policy was not to have a lot of infrastructure in the border areas as the same might be used by the chinese to enter the hinterland!!!
Today after having left india far behind in all spheres, we can not hide behind inflated and misleading notions of patriotism and jingoism that we can take them on as we have better training, better quality etc etc. we dont have a functional nuclear triad, they are getting there, india has a blue water navy, they are getting there and so on and so forth.
The problem is that while india might have a slim margin of superiority over china, if at all, China is taking giant strides in all spheres on the world stage and regional stage which will leave India far behind after eroding that theoretical margin.
Vietnam was an aberration as the terrain is made for guerilla warfare. Tibet was not, as wasnt the korean peninsula.
Neither is the indian hinterland.

essdee1972 wrote:

The "experts" here tell us that there is nothing to worry about; China is not historically an imperialistic or expansionist power. I wonder how they explain Tibet?

Wonder what history books the experts are reading!! Must be something similar to that which claims Chinese ships sailed across the World centuries before Columbus and Magellan, in junks (there is a book which claims that, I'll try to recall the author, etc.)!!!

That contention by our historians has always baffled me, as China has historically been expansionist when capable. As to the great chinese exploration fleet, there is good evidence that that is indeed true. And Columbus' journey to America wasn't the first one in any case.

essdee1972 wrote:

The "experts" here tell us that there is nothing to worry about; China is not historically an imperialistic or expansionist power. I wonder how they explain Tibet?

Wonder what history books the experts are reading!! Must be something similar to that which claims Chinese ships sailed across the World centuries before Columbus and Magellan, in junks (there is a book which claims that, I'll try to recall the author, etc.)!!!

The Chinese are not overtly concerned about manpower losses. Remember in 1938 or 39, Generalissimo (aka big gangster) Chiang kai Shek decided to breach the Yangtse dikes to slow down the Japanese advance? 800,000 (yeah, 8 lakh) Chinese civvies died, drowned. The Japanese advance was slowed, by merely 5 months.

Precisely! There's a lot of imagination going on in some circles, for sure!

Yes, I'm familiar with the book -- it claims they discovered the New World in 1421 or something like that. A friend read the book and we've discussed it at some length, but I haven't been able to get up enough interest to bother with reading it. That their junk fleet traveled the Indian Ocean, I can accept, and that some of the junks were quite large, that I can also accept. But cross the Pacific -- no, I'm not ready for that.

It is true that Columbus wasn't the first -- the Basques had been fishing the Grand Banks before that, and then there's the Vikings, which is proven beyond doubt. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some we haven't even heard about.

Regarding Chiang, no doubt he was no more than a gangster, and his brother-in-law TV Soong was the white collar gangster to go along with him. Also, his wife made good copy in the newspapers during the war. Stillwell and The American Experience in China by Barbara Tuchman gives a pretty good overview of the type we were dealing with at that time.

I don't see the Chinese as a monolithic threat with no weak points, however. For one thing, they have an environmental disaster in their big cities, and it is only getting worse. Also, they have a growing middle class that is becoming increasingly restless from having no say in the government. As long as the economy keeps growing, perhaps the government can keep a lid on dissent. It won't be easy to do so if the economy slows, however. In that case, I see the government being much more willing to take risky steps in an attempt to fix things, and that won't be good for anyone. Also, the cost of Chinese manufacturing is going up. There are cheaper places to make things and their time will pass, too, and more quickly than they think.

Look at Japan: everyone in the USA thought Japan would overtake everyone, but they had their problems and stumbled. Their own low cost labor models and excellent engineering were picked up by the Koreans. Their bankers got to gambling with the baby's milk money and sent the country into a couple of decades of economic stagnation.

I think something like this could happen to China, as well. Things are not as rosy for them as some tend to assume.