Page 1 of 1

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:39 am
by xl_target
Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job
Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty
Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty.

Today, he carries 145, “every day, without fail.”

He detailed the gunfight that caused the difference in a gripping presentation at the annual conference of the Assn. of SWAT Personnel-Wisconsin.
At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.

The most threatening encounter in Gramins’ nearly two-decade career with the Skokie (Ill.) PD north of Chicago came on a lazy August afternoon prior to his promotion to sergeant, on his first day back from a family vacation. He was about to take a quick break from his patrol circuit to buy a Star Wars game at a shopping center for his son’s eighth birthday.

An alert flashed out that a male black driving a two-door white car had robbed a bank at gunpoint in another suburb 11 miles north and had fled in an unknown direction. Gramins was only six blocks from a major expressway that was the most logical escape route into the city.

Unknown at the time, the suspect, a 37-year-old alleged Gangster Disciple, had vowed that he would kill a police officer if he got stopped.

“I’ve got a horseshoe up my ass when it comes to catching suspects,” Gramins laughs. He radioed that he was joining other officers on the busy expressway lanes to scout traffic.

He was scarcely up to highway speed when he spotted a lone male black driver in a white Pontiac Bonneville and pulled alongside him. “He gave me ‘the Look,’ that oh-crap-there’s-the-police look, and I knew he was the guy,” Gramins said.

Gramins dropped behind him. Then in a sudden, last-minute move the suspect accelerated sharply and swerved across three lanes of traffic to roar up an exit ramp. “I’ve got one running!” Gramins radioed.

The next thing he knew, bullets were flying. “That was four years ago,” Gramins said. “Yet it could be ten seconds ago.”

With Gramins following close behind, siren blaring and lights flashing, the Bonneville zigzagged through traffic and around corners into a quite pocket of single-family homes a few blocks from the exit. Then a few yards from where a 10-year-old boy was skateboarding on a driveway, the suspect abruptly squealed to a stop.

“He bailed out and ran headlong at me with a 9 mm Smith in his hand while I was still in my car,” Gramins said.

The gunman sank four rounds into the Crown Vic’s hood while Gramins was drawing his .45-cal. Glock 21.

“I didn’t have time to think of backing up or even ramming him,” Gramins said. “I see the gun and I engage.”

Gramins fired back through his windshield, sending a total of 13 rounds tearing through just three holes.

A master firearms instructor and a sniper on his department’s Tactical Intervention Unit, “I was confident at least some of them were hitting him, but he wasn’t even close to slowing down,” Gramins said.

The gunman shot his pistol dry trying to hit Gramins with rounds through his driver-side window, but except for spraying the officer’s face with glass, he narrowly missed and headed back to his car.

Gramins, also empty, escaped his squad — “a coffin,” he calls it — and reloaded on his run to cover behind the passenger-side rear of the Bonneville.

Now the robber, a lanky six-footer, was back in the fight with a .380 Bersa pistol he’d grabbed off his front seat. Rounds flew between the two as the gunman dashed toward the squad car.

Again, Gamins shot dry and reloaded.

“I thought I was hitting him, but with shots going through his clothing it was hard to tell for sure. This much was certain: he kept moving and kept shooting, trying his damnedest to kill me.”

In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…“in time,” Gramins emphasizes.

But time for Gramins, like the stack of bullets in his third magazine, was fast running out.

In his trunk was an AR-15; in an overhead rack inside the squad, a Remington 870.

But reaching either was impractical. Gramins did manage to get himself to a grassy spot near a tree on the curb side of his vehicle where he could prone out for a solid shooting platform.

The suspect was in the street on the other side of the car. “I could see him by looking under the chassis,” Gramins recalls. “I tried a couple of ricochet rounds that didn’t connect. Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’ ”

When the suspect bent down to peer under the car, Gramins carefully established a sight picture, and squeezed off three controlled bursts in rapid succession.

Each round slammed into the suspect’s head — one through each side of his mouth and one through the top of his skull into his brain. At long last the would-be cop killer crumpled to the pavement.

The whole shootout had lasted 56 seconds, Gramins said. The assailant had fired 21 rounds from his two handguns. Inexplicably — but fortunately — he had not attempted to employ an SKS semi-automatic rifle that was lying on his front seat ready to go.

Gramins had discharged 33 rounds. Four remained in his magazine.

Two houses and a parked Mercedes in the vicinity had been struck by bullets, but with no casualties. The young skateboarder had run inside yelling at his dad to call 911 as soon as the battle started and also escaped injury. Despite the fusillade of lead sent his way, Gramins’ only damage besides glass cuts was a wound to his left shin. His dominant emotion throughout his brush with death, he recalls, was “feeling very alone, with no one to help me but myself.”

Remarkably, the gunman was still showing vital signs when EMS arrived. Sheer determination, it seemed, kept him going, for no evidence of drugs or alcohol was found in his system.

He was transported to a trauma center where Gramins also was taken. They shared an ER bay with only a curtain between them as medical personnel fought unsuccessfully to save the robber’s life.

At one point Gramins heard a doctor exclaim, “We may as well stop. Every bag of blood we give him ends up on the floor. This guy’s like Swiss cheese. Why’d that cop have to shoot him so many times!”

Gramins thought, “He just tried to kill me! Where’s that part of it?”

When Gramins was released from the hospital, “I walked out of there a different person,” he said.

“Being in a shooting changes you. Killing someone changes you even more.” As a devout Catholic, some of his changes involved a deepening spirituality and philosophical reflections, he said without elaborating.

At least one alteration was emphatically practical.

Before the shooting, Gramins routinely carried 47 rounds of handgun ammo on his person, including two extra magazines for his Glock 21 and 10 rounds loaded in a backup gun attached to his vest, a 9 mm Glock 26.

Now unfailingly he goes to work carrying 145 handgun rounds, all 9 mm. These include three extra 17-round magazines for his primary sidearm (currently a Glock 17), plus two 33-round mags tucked in his vest, as well as the backup gun. Besides all that, he’s got 90 rounds for the AR-15 that now rides in a rack up front.

Paranoia?

Gramins shook his head and said “Preparation.”

Quoted from Here

Re: Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:08 am
by inplainsight
Thanks for sharing XL. Goes to show what it takes to bring down a determined attacker.

I wonder what the outcome would have been had the cop been using a .32 ACP or a .380...

Re: Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:48 am
by Skyman
14 hits with a .45...damn!

heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney

Willpower FTW!

Re: Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:53 am
by xl_target
kandarp wrote:Thanks for sharing XL. Goes to show what it takes to bring down a determined attacker.

I wonder what the outcome would have been had the cop been using a .32 ACP or a .380...
That sure makes you think, doesn't it Kandarp?

A rifle or shotgun would be the answer but a handgun is so much easier to have on your person. I've heard it mentioned in many gun forums that a handgun is just what is necessary to fight your way to a long gun but how many of us have ready access to a long gun when we are out and about? Even in N. America where almost everyone drives, most wouldn't have ready access to a long gun. The area I'm in has no public transportation to speak of, so I'm in my car or close to my car most of the time. Still, the only time I have a rifle or shotgun in my trunk is if I'm going to the range or to an area to hunt.
14 hits with a .45...damn!

heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney

Willpower FTW!
Don't forget the head... and he was still alive when he got to the hospital.
Just goes to show little "stopping power" (as some choose to call it), a handgun has.
On the other hand, I have read stories of guys stopping a Grizzly with a handgun.
What's the answer? Got me.

Re: Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:05 pm
by timmy
One thing I draw from this is that the notion that shooting someone with a 9mm or 380 or even 32 must always be an exercise in futility, like throwing pebbles, but shooting someone in the pinky fingernail will always guarantee an immediately lethal hit.

Reading this reminds me of Prince Yussupov's attempt to assassinate Rasputin. One thing that is sure, and that is that the sure fire theories and all of these "knock down" factors are not so sure at all.

Re: Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:48 pm
by xl_target
timmy wrote:One thing I draw from this is that the notion that shooting someone with a 9mm or 380 or even 32 must always be an exercise in futility, like throwing pebbles, but shooting someone in the pinky fingernail will always guarantee an immediately lethal hit.

Reading this reminds me of Prince Yussupov's attempt to assassinate Rasputin. One thing that is sure, and that is that the sure fire theories and all of these "knock down" factors are not so sure at all.
..or even a near miss with a .45 will blow his arm off. LOL

Re: Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:15 pm
by Skyman
Don't forget the head... and he was still alive when he got to the hospital.
Just goes to show little "stopping power" (as some choose to call it), a handgun has.
On the other hand, I have read stories of guys stopping a Grizzly with a handgun.
What's the answer? Got me.

A .45 is one of the better calibers ( people say ) to stop a man.Let us consider the hits - The heart, both lungs, and the liver.A .45 expands to a good .55 or more inches.( On the average ) besides being a good penetrator.The heart and liver having a .45 hit, direct or partial, alone should have spilled a lot of blood.The lungs being hit would result in them filling up with blood as well.Hits to the kidney have a kind of shut down effect, it's very painful.Not to mention the diaphragm.

Bullet placement is out of the question.All these were well-placed shots.The caliber also is a good one, having been used for many years.Was this a miracle or was he an extraordinarily resilient man? Is this a one-off incident? Can this incident be written off or considered seriously - Enough to say even a .45 is rather inadequate? Or was it just that it takes time for even the most well placed shots to kill?

There was a debate here about calibers, and there was a lot of noise about bullet placement.What say ye, bullet placers? On paper, the .45 should have stopped or slowed him after two or three hits at most.To think he was alive after all this plus the headshot...a debate, if you please.

Re: Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:36 pm
by winnie_the_pooh
Yup, a rifle is better than a handgun.Thanks for posting this XL.Makes you wonder,does it not?

Re: Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:14 pm
by Vikram
A very interesting article,XL.Thanks for sharing. It must be one of those instances when the hammer of Thor was needed to put this guy down.

Sometimes, even rifles prove to be inadequate in putting down a charged individual immediately. There are recorded instances, though not with the forensic details available in civilian incidents,in war where soldiers continued fighting despite having been shot with rifles multiple times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjay_Kumar_(soldier)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogendra_Singh_Yadav

Slightly anecdotal in the loosest interpretation of the term and may be slightly embellished but not too far from truth.

I think to keep shooting into the places where it matters is the only way to act in incidents like this.

Best-
Vikram

Re: Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:40 pm
by perfectionist1
Considering Winscousin, with layers of clothing and jacket that usually folks put on there, should have slowed down the bullet before penetration.

Maybe a 0.32 cal lead would have safely stopped inside one of the pockets.

Cheers...

Re: Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:54 pm
by Skyman
Vikram, thanks for the links.It was truly inspiring to read about their bravery and sacrifice.It is a crying shame they are so ill-equipped.

Re: Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:09 pm
by timmy
Here's an interesting little write up about the Moros of the Philippines and the genesis of the 1911 in 45 ACP. I found the brief accounts of the fighting to be interesting:

http://www.morolandhistory.com/Related% ... %20.45.htm

Since it says copyright, I won't quote it here, but you have to look at the web page to see the pictures, anyway.