Indians For Guns

The CBI has recommended the blacklisting of most of the major international Defence Arms dealers in the subcontinent. If this happens, Indian soldiers will never see the light of day and will be forced to use substandard weapons manufactured by you know who..

http://idrw.org/?p=72

Here's the full post :

Indian MoD comments various defence and security issues
BY ADMIN AT 30 JULY, 2010, 1:33 PM

BY: defpro.com

According to the Indian Press Information Bureau, the following information was recently given by Indian Defence Minister, Shri AK Antony in written replies to members of the Parliament of India:

Weapons for Low Intensity Conflict

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is involved in development of defence technologies and now focusing on customization of certain technologies already developed for military operations to these new emerging security threats and development of new technologies and devices as projected by security forces, both military and para military, during recent interactions with them. Based on security forces’ needs and DRDO capabilities, the requirements have been grouped in various technology heads, like technologies and devices for surveillance and Reconnaissance; Enhancing Day and Night Vision capability; Incapacitation; Arms and Ammunitions; Detection and Diffusion of Explosive and IEDs; Communication and Jamming; Personnel Protection and Support Systems. A comprehensive mission mode programme with participation of many DRDO labs, security forces and industries is being formulated. Some of the weapons developed by DRDO which are quite useful for LIC Operations are as follows:

(i) INSAS Rifle (Weight with loaded magazine – 4.1 Kg and effective range – 400 m).
(ii) Modern Sub Machine Carbine (MSMC) (Weight with loaded magazine – 3.4 Kg and effective range – 200 m).
(iii) Oleo-Resin (Chilli) Based Hand Grenade.
(iv) CR Based Shells.
(v) Tear Gas Grenades (To incapacitate terrorists and flushing them out from their hideouts and for mob dispersal / riot control operations).
(vi) Plastic Bullets (Non-lethal & non-poisonous bullets do not expand after penetration and cause only superficial injuries).

Blacklisting of Companies Dealing in Arms by CBI

Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) has recommended blacklisting/debarring of following firms in recent past:

(i) M/s Singapore Technologies Kinetics Ltd (STK), Singapore
(ii) M/s Israel Military Industries Ltd. (IMI), Israel
(iii) M/s Rheinmetall Air Defence (RAD), Zurich.
(iv) M/s Corporation Defence, Russia (CDR).
(v) M/s Denel, South Africa
(vi) M/s Varas Associates, Isle of Man.
(vii) M/s Soltam, Israel

CBI has filed chargesheet before court against M/s TS Kisan & Co. Pvt Ltd., New Delhi, M/s RK Machine Tools, Ltd., Ludhiana, Shri Sudipto Ghosh, former Director – general & Chairman, Ordnance Factory Board and others for corruption charges.

Cap on FDI in Defence Manufacturing Sector

Ministry of Commerce and Industry has circulated a discussion paper suggesting the Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) cap in the Defence manufacturing sector at 74 per cent raising it from the existing 26 per cent. The response of Defence Ministry is under formulation.

Transparency in Defence Deals

Central Bureau of Investigation has recommended blacklisting of following firms on the basis of their investigation of FIR against Shri Sudipto Ghosh, former DGOF and others regarding illogical gratification:-

(i) M/s Singapore Technologies Kinetics Ltd (STK), Singapore
(ii) M/s Israel Military Industries Ltd. (IMI), Israel
(iii) M/s TS Kisan & Co Pvt Ltd, New Delhi
(iv) M/s RK Machine Tools, Ludhiana
(v) M/s Rheinmetall Air Defence (RAD), Zurich.
(vi) M/s Corporation Defence, Russia (CDR).

Further action in the matter will be taken after obtaining the advice of CVC and the Ministry of Law. Nexus, if any, between Indian and foreign companies does not appear to have been investigated by CBI in this case.

To infuse greater transparency in the procurement process, the role of independent monitors has been enhanced and made more elaborate in the Defence Procurement Procedure – 2008 (Amendment-2009).

The role of independent monitor now envisages the following:

(i) All complaints regarding violation of integrity pact, received by the buyer, will be referred to Independent Monitors for comments/enquiry.
(ii) Independent Monitors have been provided access to the relevant records of the buyer, connected with the complaint.
(iii) The report of enquiry, if any, made by the Independent Monitors shall be submitted to the head of the Acquisition Wing of the Ministry of Defence, Government of India for a final and appropriate decision in the matter keeping in view the provision of Integrity Pact.

Self-Reliance in Defence Production and Equipment

‘Self-reliance’ has been a significant goal in defence production. Towards this end the Government has so far taken the following steps:

(i) The defence manufacturing sector was earlier reserved for the public sector only. In May, 2001 the Central Government opened it for participation by the private sector to the extent of 100%, with Foreign Direct Investment permissible upto 26% both subject to licensing. The Department of Industrial Policy and Promotion has notified detailed guidelines for licensing production of arms and ammunition. So far 135 licenses have been issued to 75 companies in the private sector.

(ii) The Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs) and Ordnance Factories have been upgrading and modernizing their plants to upgrade their production capacities.

(iii) DPSUs and Ordnance Factories have been advised to invest significantly in Research and Development (R&D) efforts.

(iv) The Defence Procurement Procedure – 2008 (DPP-2008) provides for the following categories of purchases / acquisition of defence equipment for boosting indigenous production of defence goods:
(a) ‘Buy (Indian)’ means buying from Indian vendors only. In this case where the systems are integrated by an Indian vendor, a minimum of 30% indigenous content is required.
(b) ‘Buy & Make’: Means purchase from a foreign vendor followed by licensed production / indigenous manufacture in the country.
(c) ‘Make’ – high technology complex systems to be designed, developed and produced indigenously.
(d) ‘Buy & Make (Indian)’ means purchase from an Indian vendor, including an Indian company forming joint venture / establishing production arrangement with the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) followed by licensed production/indigenous manufacture in India. ‘Buy & Make (Indian)’ must have a minimum 50% indigenous content on cost basis.
(e) Cases where capital acquisitions under ‘Buy (Global)’ or ‘Buy and Make with Transfer of Technology’ with foreign vendors are for more than Rs. 300 crore, the ‘Offset’ clause gets invoked. The minimum offset is 30% of the estimated cost or foreign exchange component.

Five Sectoral Multi-Disciplinary Indigenisation Committees have been set up in the Department of Defence Production for the sectors Lands, Navy, Air, Missile and Electronics, to promote indigenisation in these fields.

Special Clothing for Army Personnel Posted in high Altitudes

Special clothing, Ski and Mountaineering Equipment authorized to the troops posts at locations characterized by extreme cold climate conditions, including Siachen/Kargil, comprise 55 items. Of these, 36 items are being procured indigenously and only 19 items are being procured ex-import.

In order to streamline above procurement as per approved quality and user requirement, an Empowered Committee under the Chairmanship of Master General of Ordnance (MGO) of Army Headquarters with full powers of competent financial authority, has been approved and functioning since August 2007. Sufficient quantity of Special Clothing and Mountaineering Equipment are kept as reserve to avoid any shortage and soldiers posted at these areas are being provided with Special Clothing items as per the authorisation. Improvement in quality and development of indigenous sources for Special Clothing and Mountaineering Equipment is a continuous process.

on the other hand, it might prove to be competitive for the local market.

Not wanting to get political here, but......

"Self-reliance" the magic words which has meant millions for the Swiss accounts of you-know-who (no Harry Potter allusion here ), still at work here. The black-listed guys were linked to this Sudipto Ghosh chap, who was caught in corruption charges (wonder how his predecessors in OFB escaped!). Actually no fault of the companies, if asked for a bribe, they have no choice but to pay up. We do the same for driving licenses, passports, ration cards....... ad nauseum.

As for the soldiers, they will do their job, use the rifles as clubs, snatch victory with inferior arms, no political support, with generals more interested in prime real estate in Mumbai, everything... and we shall keep the poor guy's spirits up with Jai Jawan, etc.

Meaning,they will stop importing weapons from these companies and will solely rely on indian make.but who is responsible for all this.this did not happen without the knowledge of central govt,like spectrum.our country has been ruled by Nehru's family for almost 60 yrs.no remorse from this corruption in near future. our country needs a change on all fronts,defence,politics,neighbourhood policy and so on.all we can do is talk,nothing more.we are helpless.wish we could follow egypt!

that surly can become one more of those political threads

if money received as kick backs from those respected companies put into private arms manufacturing, India can become one of leading arms exporter in the world. If this proposal will prevent corruption I would vouch for it.

from military point of view Indian army no need weapons at all. what a reason to have a rifle when the law prohibiting you from using it. huge portion of the country occupied by foreign sponsored armed forces. and it is not a war according to Indian military doctrine, so I'm sure better would be to prevent corruption, Indian army can do well with muzzle loaders. in most areas those Mao followers firing in Indian army personnel, and they can only can trow rotten tomatoes back in retaliation.

Sorry I been sarcastic, but my point is: armed forced preparedness and number must be adequate to the defense task and scope of the conflict.
Scope of the conflict is that to successfully fight insurgency it take 10-20 army mens per one insurgent. So agents of foreign nations not in CBI, first look into who got designed Indian constitution and that portion that army cannot be used against own citizens.

Its not something new, in all the big deals in all form of business, money in one way of the other exchange hands.
When it comes to defense, its no exception. , bigger the deal, bigger the shower of goodies to the people involved.
I have heard from my friend, who used to work in HAL, that Indian Army and Airforce, people, they always preferred foreign makes as firstly it provided them with the bare minimum opportunity to travel abroad and to be followed with goodies.
Recent list of scams, hitting the defense force, shows that.
We should not worry about the kick backs, if there is no compromise on the quality. The way i see it is that if i have 2 companies giving me a quality product and i know if Product a meets my critieria and there is no compromise in buying product a and at the same time Prod A company is willing to pay me goodies, then there should not be any issue. I wont call it favoritism or corruption.
This we get good product, conscious is clear, my man who is sacrificing a lot by serving the country is not starving for money. I know this debatable what i have written, i think this is better, than cutting out the supplies and then ending up with INSAS rifle which will jam and get the soldiers killed.
But at the same time i agree with the following
(iv) The Defence Procurement Procedure – 2008 (DPP-2008) provides for the following categories of purchases / acquisition of defence equipment for boosting indigenous production of defence goods:
(a) ‘Buy (Indian)’ means buying from Indian vendors only. In this case where the systems are integrated by an Indian vendor, a minimum of 30% indigenous content is required.
(b) ‘Buy & Make’: Means purchase from a foreign vendor followed by licensed production / indigenous manufacture in the country.
(c) ‘Make’ – high technology complex systems to be designed, developed and produced indigenously.
(d) ‘Buy & Make (Indian)’ means purchase from an Indian vendor, including an Indian company forming joint venture / establishing production arrangement with the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) followed by licensed production/indigenous manufacture in India. ‘Buy & Make (Indian)’ must have a minimum 50% indigenous content on cost basis.
Initially there has to push for buying local stuff too, otherwise it will be same story like Arjun Tank, where Army kept on upgrade the requirement every time there were ready to deliver. There has to initial compromise also, but it should be for the betterment and collaboration of the product. DRDO had challenged army for the trial with T-90 tanks and their point was absolutely valid that till they order which will stabilise and give ROI on investment how can the army keep upgrading the requirement, without investing any thing.
It should be both ways

Add to this the news that Austria and Germans dont want to sell arms to certain Indian agencies due to human rights issues - so whose left Yes the Yankees and here they come

ngrewal wrote:Add to this the news that Austria and Germans dont want to sell arms to certain Indian agencies due to human rights issues - so whose left Yes the Yankees and here they come

yep, i read it in Outlook magazine, that Glock and if not wrong Heckler & Koch sub machine guns have being refused to indian State police. Police forces were looking to purchase these to modernize their forces, but these countries have refused the sale citing poor human right record of these state police force.

All this boils down to RKBA,quoting Thomas Jefferson"citizens should have the right to bear arms as a last resort to the tyranny in government"(pardon me for not quoting correctly,I don't remember the actual words),so its not a big surprise that H&K or Glock refuse to sell arms to India,as the cops have nothing to fear from the "aam aadmi",and police attrocities go unanswered!!Don't get me wrong here,I'm not advocating violence here against anyone,but these points compel one to ponder deeply.By the way,I wonder if Pakistan's human rights record is better than ours,as H&K and Glock both do business with them

Yeah, Pakistan is better in terms of of gun rights. I heard they even allows Full auto AK-47 to civilians (Last time I chatted with a Pakistani, he said only Pathans get them easily though)
BTW you may want to take a look at this http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-cl ... -guns.html lol the picture there making me laugh but not the content.

if Indian police want Glocks they should ask our Israeli friends. Why to go and ask direct from GLock. If you have such nice friend you can get absolutely latest and best and even secret weapon system. At least Sri Lankan government did not experienced any problems with procuring latest systems since Israeli started helping them.