Seeking advice regarding armed security & private carry

[MedicLeo]

I am a former British police officer, now a US citizen in California, working in the security profession. Here in California, I am licensed as a Security Officer and as a Private Investigator. Additionally, I am permitted by the state government to "open carry" a firearm while working or travelling to and from work. Additionally, in the past I have held a 'concealed carry' permit, which allowed me to carry a concealed loaded firearm.

I am currently considering a security management position in Hyderabad, and wonder if someone can answer, or point me to information, for the following questions;

Is it possible for a private individual to obtain a firearm (concealed?) carry permit in Hyderabad?
Is it possible to obtain a permit if you are employed in a security profession?
Are there regulations applying to armed security officers?
Is the security industry regulated - requiring training, permits etc to work as a security officer?
Are other other defensive weapons permitted, such as batons, tear-gas, Taser?
If bringing firearms from the USA to India, do the guns have to be shipped to a firearms dealer for collection?
My guns are a Glock 37 (.45GAP) for open carry, and a Glock 19 (9mm) for concealed carry - is ammunition readily available in both calibre?
Is there much legal or illegal firearm carry by citizens for self defense purposes?

I look forward to talking with members who have professional security interests - especially in Hyderabad. Feel free to message me privately.

Drew

[nagarifle]

I am a former British police officer, now a US citizen in California, working in the security profession. Here in California, I am licensed as a Security Officer and as a Private Investigator. Additionally, I am permitted by the state government to "open carry" a firearm while working or travelling to and from work. Additionally, in the past I have held a 'concealed carry' permit, which allowed me to carry a concealed loaded firearm.

I am currently considering a security management position in Hyderabad, and wonder if someone can answer, or point me to information, for the following questions;

Is it possible for a private individual to obtain a firearm (concealed?) carry permit in Hyderabad?
Is it possible to obtain a permit if you are employed in a security profession?
Are there regulations applying to armed security officers?
Is the security industry regulated - requiring training, permits etc to work as a security officer?
Are other other defensive weapons permitted, such as batons, tear-gas, Taser?
If bringing firearms from the USA to India, do the guns have to be shipped to a firearms dealer for collection?
My guns are a Glock 37 (.45GAP) for open carry, and a Glock 19 (9mm) for concealed carry - is ammunition readily available in both calibre?
Is there much legal or illegal firearm carry by citizens for self defense purposes?

I look forward to talking with members who have professional security interests - especially in Hyderabad. Feel free to message me privately.

Drew

welcome drew, do search the legal thread and you will find most of your questioned answered. as it becomes a tidies task for all to answer the same question over and over again.
here is a links to get you started.

http://indiansforguns.com/viewforum.php?f=4

[winnie_the_pooh]

Medicoleo

1.Import of firearms into India has been banned since 1986

2.A foreign visitor coming to India can obtain a license for a limited period of time.However it is only granted if the he is bringing in the gun to participate in a sporting event.Foreigners can not get a license for a firearm.Diplomats are however exempt from the ban on import or the requirement for a license.However they can not sell their arms in the country.

3.In India there is no separate Concealed Carry permit.A license enables the individual to carry the gun.In fact open carry is generally frowned upon.No such problem with concealed carry.

[mayuri]

I agree with above.

[goodboy_mentor]

1.Import of firearms into India has been banned since 1986

They are not banned but in restricted list of EXIM policy.

Foreigners can not get a license for a firearm.

Foreigners can get a firearm license but process is very time consuming because of ignorance, prejudice and apathy of bureaucracy against the firearm ownership. Firearms license is not issued on basis of citizenship but on basis of residency. Firearm licenses are issued besides sport & crop protection, for self defense which is a Constitutionally guaranteed fundamental right under article 21 for all "persons"(which includes all citizens as well a foreigners)within territory of India.

[Anand]

Hi Drew,
Is it possible for a private individual to obtain a firearm (concealed?) carry permit in Hyderabad?
Yes, but difficult for a citizen, probably even more difficult for a foreigner.

Is it possible to obtain a permit if you are employed in a security profession?
Employment in the security industry by itself does not entitle you to get a license.

Are there regulations applying to armed security officers?
All firearms laws will apply if you are granted a license. I do not know if there are any additional ones for security guys.

Is the security industry regulated - requiring training, permits etc to work as a security officer?
To the best of my knowledge this varies by state, I imagine,at the least a background check may be conducted by the employer(with Police help) to make sure there are no future problems. For this reason, most armed private security personnel tend to be retired military, or LEO.

Are other other defensive weapons permitted, such as batons, tear-gas, Taser?
It is illegal to use any noxious or other gas as a weapon, batons may be okay, but Taser I don't know.

If bringing firearms from the USA to India, do the guns have to be shipped to a firearms dealer for collection?
Unless you are transfering residence to India, the import of firearms will be illegal unless you, as a foreign national are coming here to compete in shooting events which will then entitle you for a 6 month license (non renewable)

My guns are a Glock 37 (.45GAP) for open carry, and a Glock 19 (9mm) for concealed carry - is ammunition readily available in both calibre?
Both calibers mentioned above are neither made in India nor easily available, also 9mm P happens to be a Prohibited Caliber.

Is there much legal or illegal firearm carry by citizens for self defense purposes?
There sure is legal licensed firearm carry for self defense by citizens. As for illegal stuff, I am not sure that would count as self defense

Regards,
Anand

[winnie_the_pooh]

Goodboy_mentor,

1.Import is banned however some categories of people have been exempted.

2.Of the Fundamental Rights in our Constitution the ONLY right that a foreigner has is the Right to life.This is besides the internationally recognized rights in the UN Charter on Human Rights.

And for the last time,in India, ownership of arms is regulated by a legislation which can be amended and can even be revoked.Also as it is,the Arms Act gives the govt. the right to suspend or revoke licenses in any or all parts of the country.There is no right to bear arms in India rather it is a privilege granted to us by our rulers

The specific part of the single Judge order of the Allahabad High Court you often cite has been set aside by a superior Bench of the same High Court.It matters little that the Judge who had passed the order is now a judge of the Supreme Court.His order qua the part where he had equated owning guns to the Right to Life has the same value as a piece of used toilet paper.

[goodboy_mentor]

WTP you are always repeating the same thing without understanding the concepts of rights. No fundamental right can "granted" by any government document be it a Constitution of India or UN. Fundamental rights are birth rights. The fundamental rights exist, like we have right to breath. Government documents merely "guarantee" those rights so that if violated a person can get relief by approaching court of law. You cannot say we do not have fundamental right of self defense or RKBA. We very much have those rights and they have been horribly transgressed by our government due to sheeer ignorance of people and their representatives in Parliament, you are also an example of such people among those people. Sorry to say that, I do not intend to make a personal attack at you. My purpose is to explain how pervasive is this ignorance. Hence it is not very surprising that unfortunately we have one act that is called Arms Act 1959 that is suffering from the vice of over delegation. it is doing no practical good except helping the bureaucrats/government rule this country as a colony and it is no surprise we have rebellion in almost every part of country(far worst than what British did). Read the following: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 533675.cms
A hillock is strewn with empty bottles of whisky and sticks — remnants of what tribals allege was a 48-hour torture session by drunk BSF men.
"One of them grabbed me around the chest and said, 'you are a Naxal, haven't you been touched by a man before'," says the 16-year-old girl who lives and studies in a government residential school and had come home to recuperate from illness
Villagers say several men were beaten up in a similar fashion all through Sunday and Monday. Narsingh Kumar, one of the five men who was brought to the district hospital at Kanker, shows his bruised back and swollen feet. "They thrust a stick inside my anus," he said

1.Import is banned however some categories of people have been exempted.

Imports are on restricted list of EXIM policy not banned. When anything is banned you cannot have exemption for certain people. For example Maoist party is banned. It means all citizens are banned from joining Maoist organisations. It does not mean some are exempted. Hope it makes the point clear. If you have any government document that uses the word, imports of firearms are "banned" please post the copy of that document or provide the link.

2.Of the Fundamental Rights in our Constitution the ONLY right that a foreigner has is the Right to life.This is besides the internationally recognized rights in the UN Charter on Human Rights.

The Supreme Court has held in its landmark judgment in Maneka Gandhi v. Union of India [(1978) 1 SCC 248] that the procedure contemplated by Article 21 must answer the test of reasonableness. The Court further held that the procedure should also be in conformity with the principles of natural justice.This example is given to demonstrate an instance of expansive interpretation of a fundamental right. The expression 'life' in Article 21 does not connote merely physical or animal existence. The right to life includes right to live with human dignity. Supreme Court has in numerous cases deduced fundamental rights which are not specifically mentioned in Part-III(Fundamental Rights) on the principle that certain unarticulated rights are implicit in the enumerated guarantees. Thus the Right to Self Defense is guaranteed by Constitution and corollary to it we already Sections 96 to 106 IPC.

Test of Reasonableness and natural justice:Courts have held that interpretation of the Constitution has to be such as to enable the citizens to enjoy the rights guaranteed by Part III to the fullest measure. Hence it cannot be expected from any person to exercise his Right of Self defense to the fullest measure unless he is allowed to keep and bear arms to the fullest measure. Hence the Right to Keep and bear Arms is clearly embedded in Right to Life guaranteed under Article 21. It also follows ALL PERSONS are allowed to keep arms unless anyone is disqualified as per clear procedure laid down by the law. The guarantee of Right to Life & Liberty becomes absolutely meaningless if the Right to Self Defense is denied. Also the Right to Self Defense becomes absolutely meaningless if the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is denied. It clearly follows if RKBA is violated by State the Right to Life & Liberty gets violated by State. Constitution is the fountain of all powers and laws. The Police and paramilitary are also given firearms for the same right of self defense as per RKBA as allowed by the same Constitutional guarantee under Article 21. Rights of citizens are no less. Self Defense and RKBA are Human Rights as well. RKBA is also a right which Indians have been enjoying from the times immemorial. It is a part and parcel of our culture. It is only during brief colonial period under British rule it was violated for colonial reasons.

What kind of reasonableness and principles of natural justice is found in the Arms Act, is anybodies guess?

[winnie_the_pooh]

[Subal das]

Hi Drew,

you may do better if you can first just visit Hyderabad and see if you like the place and can adjust to local climate and culture.

take a look at Hyderabad expats web site http://www.hytea.org may help too

cheers
S

[goodboy_mentor]

WTP there is nothing to feel frustrated. What is the point you are trying to make? And where is the flaw in my logic. I have clearly explained in a logical way with citations of Supreme Court's interpretations of Part III of Constitution. Now where is the problem? As per my understanding, your contentions are:

1) Imports of firearms are "banned". All I am saying they are on restricted list of EXIM policy. I have only requested you do post the copy of government order or link for that order that states firearm imports are "banned"

2) You are saying Self Defense and RKBA are not fundamental rights. I have clearly explained the meaning of fundamental rights. They are birth rights, not any privileges given by any government document.

3) You are saying fundamental rights of self defense and RKBA are not a part of article 21 under part III of Constitution. I have supported my contention with help citing the opinion of Supreme Court about it.

4) You are saying RKBA(or keeping arms for that matter)is a privilege. "Privilege" means special powers or de facto immunities held as a consequence of political power or wealth. Privilege of this sort may be transmitted by birth into a privileged class or achieved through individual actions. Our Constitution has abolished such privileges. Example: the privilege of "Privy" purses for princely states has been abolished. If keeping of arms is a privilege (as contended by you or any law for that matter)then it is indeed unconstitutional. Any order of MHA conferring privileges to certain people including the order of MHA dated 31.03.20109 which derives its powers from Arms Act is example of conferring privilege to certain class of people, is indeed unconstitutional. The sections/clauses of Arms Act which are delegating powers to give these privileges are also as a consequence unconstitutional.

5) You are saying that ownership of arms is regulated by a legislation. Please mention any sentence where I am saying it is not regulated by legislation. Regulating by legislation does not mean the power to violate the constitution or fundamental rights guaranteed therein.

If you do not find my logic and reasoning sound enough, then please refer to the following High Court judgment, where the concerned licensing authority is directed to entertain the Kenyan citizen's application for grant of the arms licence: http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/436661/

Now can I expect a smile from you?

[kb100]

read that article (as well as the others in other threads) ... GAWD! - do the legal types go to the same schools as the rest of us?!?!

Why cant they keep the language straight and simple!

[winnie_the_pooh]

Goodboy,

From the order that you have cited

"Moreover, I respectfully do not agree with the view taken by the Allahabad High Court that the right to bear arms is embedded in Article 21 of the Constitution and hence it is a fundamental right. Article 21 is with regard to the protection of life and personal liberty and according to this Article, no person shall be deprived of his life or personal liberty except according to procedure established by law. I fail to understand how such a right, which has been given against the deprivation of life and personal liberty except in accordance with the procedure established by law, would include a right to possess arm and in my considered opinion, the view that the right to bear arm is embedded in Article 21 of the Constitution cannot be countenanced."

I have read YOUR interpretations but the fact of the matter is that they count for little more than the specific part of the Allahabad High Court order that you are so enamored of.I think that we have hijacked this thread enough.You can always start another one to dazzle us with your legal brilliance.However if I were you,I would wait till such time that my interpretations can be cited in a court of law.I wish you all the best but will not be holding my breath.

[goodboy_mentor]

WPT,

The main question being asked by the thread owner is whether a foreign national can get an arms license? Answer is yes he can get it. Do you have any doubts now? You wanted a court order, and I have cited it.

Your assumption that I am enamored about Allahabad High Court order, it is just a figment of your imagination. I have clearly mentioned my logic, if you find any flaw in that logic, please find flaws and counter it logically. There is nothing to be upset. The more we discuss and counter each other logically the better it is.

The order I have cited and the part that you have extracted is nothing but the opinion of the judge. It is an open fact that High Courts are not only contradicting themselves, even Supreme Court is contradicting itself in many judgments. The quality of judgments delivered by High Courts and lower courts are well known to all. You must be aware that there is an inherent mindest against firearms in most judges. Even when the wordings of a statute are clear and unambiguous even then same Gujrat High Court has difficulty understanding it and contradicting the order that I have cited above. Please refer to judgment of the same Gujrat High Court at : http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 90#p111751

I have pointed out self contradictory orders of same Gujrat High Court. Now you decide about the quality of these judgments. Definitely you can wait till you get a court order clearly mentioning whatever you want. But there is nothing that prevents anyone to do an open discussion on any legal matter logically. Law is nothing but strong logic.

I am also waiting for you to provide copy or link of government order that says import of firearms are "banned"

[winnie_the_pooh]

Okay you win.I am exhausted reading your replies.I have nothing further to say on this.Do carry on.