India's shame is its politicians

[airgun_novice]

this is what i was told by a very senior para military legal officer. your boys do rape as in the case of boys in the NE so and so case is well recorded but under certain black laws they are not dealt with. HE said, they commit rape because they are far from home. that is coming from one very senior officer. please note he never said they were wrong and if found guilty must be punished to the full.

I hope that you reported this confession to the right authority, right ? Unless it was 'protected' under some act that paid media resort to nowadays stating "un-named/ un-disclosed" sources..." ? Hope that very senior para military legal officer was suitably censured ? Hope you would not abet a crime like rape ?

do you know that IAF bombed Indian citizen in the 50s. perhaps you may not be aware of such facts.

I wasn't - but I have heard that people of MH were about to face a similar fate during 'Sanyukt Maharashtra Andolan' or even before, the people of Punjab, during and following the Partition. Alas ! The soldiers are but followers of orders of the PM and/ or the RM. Looks like IAF bombing civilians was quite a threat during the late 40s through 50s. Unless you are hinting that the IAF acted of its own accord without orders from the PM/ RM ? nagarifle, you *must* make incidents like this more widely known and bring the culprits to justice.

one bed apple in the barrel is all that takes to term term the barrel is with bed apples.

Agree. The subject title seems to indicate almost correctly where the entire barrel of rotten apples is.

i am not anti Indian forces - anti begot-ted imbeciles with no brains who think that its ok for them to committed crime against innocent people.

Nicely put. But what if those *imbeciles* (as you put it) happen to be alleged "civvies" controlled as puppets by external powers ? Is it OK for them to commit crimes against the innocent people and the Republic ? Indian armed forces are the only angels who flit around helping people then and not a candle gets lit for them. I am not against "Sunny Deols" who scream for justice, but when they get turned into "Arjuns" by enemy neighbors and used against India, I would not cry should they meet the fate of Jarasandh.

soldering is a noble profession and it must be maintained that way.
a good soldier never commits an act which goes against his/her consensus regardless of what orders are given by any officer.

Ahem - nagarifle - Quite a few of the "oldest" professions were quite noble when they started out and stayed so for a long time in history. Looks like even those 600 who rode into the valley of death simply followed orders over their own conscience. Anyway, when the civvies as quoted above can not rise above the orders given by their civilian leaders, would one expect soldiers to face court-martial every now and then under pretext of conscience ? Might as well stay away from the armed forces, right ? Orders that the soldiers eventually follow in India do not come from the officers that stick out their necks with the rest of them, but from those who are comfortable within the air-conditioned confines of South Block. Unfortunately, the politicians and babudom that are India's shame have a strangle-hold on armed forces. Again unfortunately, we do not just get the politicians that we deserve, but also the propaganda machinery that keeps them in power.

While one must not tolerate atrocities committed by the armed forces, one must definitely not tolerate the psychological and physical atrocities committed on the armed forces by the parasitic and pathogenic spin-offs of our Indian democratic system. See how the original topic of killing of 5 soldiers was digressed into a general mud-slinging on our own armed forces who do not even have a right of getting themselves directly heard by the public ?

Just my rational and informed thoughts - nothing emotional about it. Oh and the usual disclaimer applies as appropriate - am not employed by the armed forces of any country including India, nor do I act as their agent etc. But I do get a good night's sleep every now and then, thanks to India's armed forces.

With due respect to y'all - regs, A.

[fantumfan2003]

GBM,

You did mean to say prostitution is the oldest profession. And trivialised it with a smiley. Now you are trying to justify your action as humour....

If someone hurled the choicest at you, then kicked you in your front centre and gave you a big grin, as a response, I'll bet you will do something on different lines and will definitely have no humour in it.

You erred in your comparison. Which it is.
Still not convinced ?
Ask on this forum if someone will take criticism of soldiers lightly....

M.

[fantumfan2003]

And I must add that the tone was, those six made a BIG mistake.
So easy to get judgemental especially when someone else has made the mistakes.
And excel at pushing ones own mistakes under the carpet.

M.

While one must not tolerate atrocities committed by the armed forces, one must definitely not tolerate the psychological and physical atrocities committed on the armed forces by the parasitic and pathogenic spin-offs of our Indian democratic system. See how the original topic of killing of 5 soldiers was digressed into a general mud-slinging on our own armed forces who do not even have a right of getting themselves directly heard by the public ?

Just my rational and informed thoughts - nothing emotional about it. Oh and the usual disclaimer applies as appropriate - am not employed by the armed forces of any country including India, nor do I act as their agent etc. But I do get a good night's sleep every now and then, thanks to India's armed forces.

With due respect to y'all - regs, A.

[goodboy_mentor]

I wasn't - but I have heard that people of MH were about to face a similar fate during 'Sanyukt Maharashtra Andolan' or even before, the people of Punjab, during and following the Partition. Alas ! The soldiers are but followers of orders of the PM and/ or the RM. Looks like IAF bombing civilians was quite a threat during the late 40s through 50s. Unless you are hinting that the IAF acted of its own accord without orders from the PM/ RM ?

In India twice air force has been used to bomb civilians. First few days after Jallianwala massacre, Gujranwala in Punjab was bombed. You can read the details in this link http://archives.dawn.com/weekly/dmag/ar ... dmag17.htm Second in the 60s city called Aizwal was bombed.

Regardless if done under orders or without orders, killing of civilians by armed forces is a crime under domestic and international laws. Doing something under orders is no defense to commit a crime.

The difference between a soldier and mercenary is very thin. A soldier has a conscience whereas a mercenary has no conscience. A mercenary has no courage to defy orders, he is a coward who works for money. Soldiers who fired in Jallianwala Bagh is an example of mercenaries in "uniform". They had no conscience or courage to say no. Same is the case of Nazi soldiers. These soldiers were brought to justice in Nuremberg trials.

you *must* make incidents like this more widely known and bring the culprits to justice.

Yes there is no reason to hide these under the carpet. It is next to impossible to get justice when any government is bent on subverting the due process of law and protecting the guilty. If AFPSA Act is in force you have to take permission from central government under Section 6 of AFPSA Act. It is next to impossible. If AFPSA is not in force then another simple strategy is to delay the course of justice so that petitioners can either be intimidated, bribed or die natural death in due course of time.

You did mean to say prostitution is the oldest profession. Now you are trying to justify your grave mistake.

Prostitution is considered the oldest profession. No question of "justifying " anything.

If someone hurled the choicest at you, then kicked you in your front centre and gave you a big grin, I'll bet you will do something on different lines.

Yes the truth caused you such a shock and shame that you gave an emotional outburst. Shock and shame is still continuing, that is why your emotional outburst is continuing. When someone has poor reasoning he has nothing to offer except emotional outbursts.

Ask on this forum if someone will take criticism of soldiers lightly....

If someone cannot digest a reasonable criticism and take it in positive spirit, it is not my problem.

And I must add that the tone was, those six made a BIG mistake.

Oh yes sleeping on LOC was not a big mistake, that is why soldiers from across the border could walk in and walk out killing all of them. If this is not a big mistake then nothing is a big mistake.

[fantumfan2003]

GBM,

I am as this is exactly what I expected will be your response.

The grave mistake you made is including prostitutes in the conversation. I won't even go into the nobility part as it all started with Soldieirng being noble (and old).

As there is nothing wrong in taking rest, there is nothing wrong in being emotional, which I am about this particular incident. Sons, brothers, husbands were lost by some and we lost our soldiers so like it or not it is an emotional matter where your self proclaimed excellence in reasoning just does not seem to auger and is rightly trashed.

To me, what is "shock and shame" are the words you keyed in.......... "it is not my problem"
It is exactly this attitude harboured and nurtured by most of the 1.3billion urchins in this land which has resulted in a messy place that it is.

Each and every one chanting "it is not my problem"

I now fully realise why Abhijeet deleted his long response and instead just quoted Joseph de Maistre....

WE all get the leaders/ government WE deserve!

Abhijeet THANKS A TON

M.

You did mean to say prostitution is the oldest profession. Now you are trying to justify your grave mistake.

Prostitution is considered the oldest profession. No question of "justifying " anything.

If someone hurled the choicest at you, then kicked you in your front centre and gave you a big grin, I'll bet you will do something on different lines.

Yes the truth caused you such a shock and shame that you gave an emotional outburst. Shock and shame is still continuing, that is why your emotional outburst is continuing. When someone has poor reasoning he has nothing to offer except emotional outbursts.

Ask on this forum if someone will take criticism of soldiers lightly....

If someone cannot digest a reasonable criticism and take it in positive spirit, it is not my problem.

And I must add that the tone was, those six made a BIG mistake.

Oh yes sleeping on LOC was not a big mistake, that is why soldiers from across the border could walk in and walk out killing all of them. If this is not a big mistake then nothing is a big mistake.

[airgun_novice]

I wasn't - but I have heard that people of MH were about to face a similar fate during 'Sanyukt Maharashtra Andolan' or even before, the people of Punjab, during and following the Partition. Alas ! The soldiers are but followers of orders of the PM and/ or the RM. Looks like IAF bombing civilians was quite a threat during the late 40s through 50s. Unless you are hinting that the IAF acted of its own accord without orders from the PM/ RM ?

In India twice air force has been used to bomb civilians. First few days after Jallianwala massacre, Gujranwala in Punjab was bombed. You can read the details in this link http://archives.dawn.com/weekly/dmag/ar ... dmag17.htm Second in the 60s city called Aizwal was bombed.

Regardless if done under orders or without orders, killing of civilians by armed forces is a crime under domestic and international laws. Doing something under orders is no defense to commit a crime.

The difference between a soldier and mercenary is very thin. A soldier has a conscience whereas a mercenary has no conscience. A mercenary has no courage to defy orders, he is a coward who works for money. Soldiers who fired in Jallianwala Bagh is an example of mercenaries in "uniform".

Dear GBM,

Even the "dawn" link that you pasted gives the title as "Bombing of Gujranwala by British warplanes". Bombing of Aizwal in 60s ? So how did people of India punish the guilty ? By electing the very same people over and over again ? What you spoke of Aizwal justifies the thread title. BTW, what if the residents of Aizwal *then* did not consider themselves as Indian citizens ? The supposed bombing was not on unarmed civilians but on MNF. Now check this link to see what those people were up to.
http://www.northeastblog.in/mizoram/iaf ... d-apology/
And I quote -
"Indian Air Force bombed Aizwal ( known as Aijal at that time) on 4th March 1966 in order to disperse MNF ( Mizo National front) insurgents who were laying siege to Asam Rifles head quarter in Aizwal. Many Mizos took out rally’s on Saturday, 5th March 2011 to mark the 45th year of Bombing.

It is the only instance when Indian Air Forces carried out an airstrike in its own civilian territory in North East India. Indian Air Force used Toofani Fighter and Hunter Fighter to bomb Aizwal from Tezpur air base."

You mean to say it's OK for such "insurgents" to carry war against the Nation and use bombs and bullets freely and not consider themselves Indian citizens and attack Indian armed forces, but it's not OK for the IAF to follow orders issued by those in command (read civilians - PM/RM) and drop similar incendiaries under orders ? Rea the entire article and you shall see that MNF had proclaimed "independence" - so was it not attack on INDIA by the so-called INDEPENDENT ENTITY ? In that case, IAF did *NOT* seemed to have attacked "Indian civilians", right ?

So if what they did was wrong why weren't those who issued the orders were brought to justice under civil/ international laws ? By your supposed logic, I wonder how many Presidents, the US would have to send to the block ! I must admit GBM - my respect for you has waned after you cited the DAWN link for an event in 1919 when the planes were probably also flown by the Brits and blamed it on India's armed forces! Why not go further and given example of Aurangzeb on how he massacred India's civilian population and then blame it on Indian Army ?

"The difference between a soldier and mercenary is very thin. " -> HEAVY (now what was that word - Oh yeah - ) SMUT!
Au contraire, it's heavily segregated and well differentiated. Simply because the merc picks up arms and goes about shooting/ killing that does not equate him to a soldier. A merc has the option to defy and opt out - the soldier does not. BTW, a merc does not become a coward because he works for money - contrary to your statements it will take a great amount of courage to go out and fight someone else's battle in spite of knowing that the might of Military and the State Machinery is not behind you. When caught, the soldier is POW - when caught, the merc is DEAD. (Geneva Convention) I sincerely hope you get your basic understanding right.

In spite of your digressions and silly arguments, I still decided to "make it my problem" to answer your baseless arguments because I have some tangible respect for the good things you have been doing here on the forum. But that does not give you any right whatsoever to indulge in silly fantasies and slander India's armed forces with lies and half-truths. I hope you agree.

humbly yours,
A.

[goodboy_mentor]

@fantumfan2003 First you say sleeping on LOC is no mistake. Then you say media should not be believed. Then you say telling the truth about oldest profession is a mistake. But you have no reasoning to back any of your statements except emotional outbursts. To me it is a real shock and shame that you are not amenable to a discussion with proper reasoning except emotional outbursts. What 1.3 billion people do or think is their free choice and again nothing but an emotional argument on your part.

@airgun_novice it appears that you are not able to understand plain English or trying to read imaginary meanings that do not exist.

In India twice air force has been used to bomb civilians. First few days after Jallianwala massacre, Gujranwala in Punjab was bombed.

When did did Jallianwala massacre take place? If you are not aware make some effort before posting baseless arguments. What is so incorrect about posting the dawn link? Is the information factually incorrect in that link?

Again your argument of difference between soldier and mercenary is superficial at the best. It shows you lack any deep understanding. Both have the option to opt out and say no to doing crimes against humanity. Soldier does not put his conscience up for sale, whereas mercenary is up for sale in the very first place. This is the basic and fundamental difference between a soldier and mercenary. The uniform is just a superficial difference on the surface. I repeat the soldiers who committed Jallianwala Bagh massacre were nothing but mercenaries in uniform. They did not have the courage to say no to their officer. They were ranking cowards who were too scared of loosing their job and facing court martial.

As far question of "respecting" or not respecting me is concerned, it is matter of your personal choices and perceptions. As it is said beauty lies in the eyes of beholder. I can't help your perceptions. The following is what Mahatma Gandhi, whom the entire nation respectfully calls the Father of the Nation had to say-

Gandhi said, “Nagas have every right to be independent… If you do not wish to join the Union of India, nobody will force you.” A year later, Gandhi was assassinated.

Source http://www.hindustantimes.com/Books/Rev ... 99298.aspx

Nagas were promised their freedom by Mahatma Gandhi. This offer was revoked, and brutally so as events proved, by Jawaharlal Nehru and his successors.

Source http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... aga-people Please note that these links are not from "dawn". Nehru had also promised plebiscite in Kashmir. Now make a choice whether to respect our Father of the nation or chacha Nehru. Or declare that both did not represent Indians.

[airgun_novice]

@fantumfan2003 First you say sleeping on LOC is no mistake. Then you say media should not be believed. Then you say telling the truth about oldest profession is a mistake. But you have no reasoning to back any of your statements except emotional outbursts. To me it is a real shock and shame that you are not amenable to a discussion with proper reasoning except emotional outbursts. What 1.3 billion people do or think is their free choice and again nothing but an emotional argument on your part.

@airgun_novice it appears that you are not able to understand plain English or trying to read imaginary meanings that do not exist.

In India twice air force has been used to bomb civilians. First few days after Jallianwala massacre, Gujranwala in Punjab was bombed.

When did did Jallianwala massacre take place? If you are not aware make some effort before posting baseless arguments. What is so incorrect about posting the dawn link? Is the information factually incorrect in that link?

Again your argument of difference between soldier and mercenary is superficial at the best. It shows you lack any deep understanding. Both have the option to opt out and say no to doing crimes against humanity. Soldier does not put his conscience up for sale, whereas mercenary is up for sale in the very first place. This is the basic and fundamental difference between a soldier and mercenary. The uniform is just a superficial difference on the surface. I repeat the soldiers who committed Jallianwala Bagh massacre were nothing but mercenaries in uniform. They did not have the courage to say no to their officer. They were ranking cowards who were too scared of loosing their job and facing court martial.

As far question of "respecting" or not respecting me is concerned, it is matter of your personal choices and perceptions. As it is said beauty lies in the eyes of beholder. I can't help your perceptions. The following is what Mahatma Gandhi, whom the entire nation respectfully calls the Father of the Nation had to say-

Gandhi said, “Nagas have every right to be independent… If you do not wish to join the Union of India, nobody will force you.” A year later, Gandhi was assassinated.

Source http://www.hindustantimes.com/Books/Rev ... 99298.aspx

Nagas were promised their freedom by Mahatma Gandhi. This offer was revoked, and brutally so as events proved, by Jawaharlal Nehru and his successors.

Source http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... aga-people Please note that these links are not from "dawn". Nehru had also promised plebiscite in Kashmir. Now make a choice whether to respect our Father of the nation or chacha Nehru. Or declare that both did not represent Indians.

Dear GBM,

What's up with you ? Why are you losing it ? Get real & stop the "rant fest" - when was the J-Massacre ??? On 13 April 1919 DO YOU GET IT ? HELLO ??? (knock-knock) Ah ! Never mind.

FON can go about ranting anything he wants. But first provide proof that the "FON" was ratified by Indian people as such or for that matter as the sole voice of Indians. A recent RTI has revealed that there was no legal basis for the title of "FON". Since you are so fond of links, here's another one for you -
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 34824.aspx


Even the title of "Mahatma" was attached by Ravindranath Thakur and the British controlled media of the time did the rest. At the time there was also a demand for separate "Sikhistan" - thanks to the British Policy of Divide and Rule. Sikhism itself as a "separate" religion was defined by the British in 1940. So what ??? Did I say posting the dawn link was wrong or inapplicable - you yourself are reading things that are not said by me.

And a lesson of geography for you - "Aizwal" is in MIZORAM - NOT NAGALAND. And another in history - INDIRA GANDHI, NOT NEHRU, was the PM in 60s when IAF BOMBED such that there was *not* a single casualty. The terrorist outfit called MNF - MIZORAM National Front - was the culprit in waging war against the Republic of India.

AS BEFORE YOU HAVE BRANCHED OFF THE THREAD WITH PLEBICITE ISSUES etc. Hold yourself together; cold shower will go some way in helping. Shame on you - but then that's my perception. Is waging war against the State of India by supporting insurgents under any guise YOUR PERCEPTION ?

regs
A.

[fantumfan2003]

GBM



See now this is what happens when one barks up the wrong tree.

Emotional outburst at my end ? Hell no, I am laughing my guts out while typing this reply to you. I actually thought well of you but you lost that completely in this thread by glorifying the Indian media and criticizing the Indian Armed forces. To me THAT is untenable from any of my acquaintances.

Your unshakeable belief in India's media's paid/biased/2nd & 3rd hand reporting and the utter lack of it in the Indian Armed Forces is shameful.

You did not heed gladiatorgarg's comments on atrocities committed by terrorists and on top of that are hell bent on proving that you are right by posting links from media on related issues. So you ain't having a discussion here, you are engaged in "I am right, you are wrong"

As for reasoning, you have clearly chosen to ignore conditions under which our armed forces operate inspite of highlighting the same in previous posts here. But you are not here for reasoning either....

The Armed forces of this country as an institution was, is and will be held in very high regard by me and everyone else who takes the trouble to understand them and their ecosystem. Pity you do not want to go in that direction.....real pity.....

M.

@fantumfan2003 First you say sleeping on LOC is no mistake. Then you say media should not be believed. Then you say telling the truth about oldest profession is a mistake. But you have no reasoning to back any of your statements except emotional outbursts. To me it is a real shock and shame that you are not amenable to a discussion with proper reasoning except emotional outbursts. What 1.3 billion people do or think is their free choice and again nothing but an emotional argument on your part.

[goodboy_mentor]

On 13 April 1919 DO YOU GET IT ? HELLO ??? (knock-knock) Ah ! Never mind.

Are you able to understand plain English? What does the following mean?

In India twice air force has been used to bomb civilians. First few days after Jallianwala massacre, Gujranwala in Punjab was bombed.

You expect the dates to be mentioned for you? It shows your ignorance when Jallianwala Bagh took place and the fact India was also India before 1947 and partitioned in 1947.

If RTI application is not able to find records does not mean he is not called father of the nation. Your link itself clarifies it:

History has it
Father of the Nation is an honorific title given to a man considered the driving force behind the establishment of a nation. As per Wikipedia, it was Subhas Chandra Bose who used the term for Mahatma Gandhi, in a radio address from Singapore in 1944. Later, it was recognised by the Indian government. When Gandhi was assassinated, India's first prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru, in a radio address to the nation, had announced that the Father of the Nation "is no more."

And a lesson of geography for you - "Aizwal" is in MIZORAM - NOT NAGALAND

Did I mention that it is capital of nagaland? Reading things?

And another in history - INDIRA GANDHI, NOT NEHRU, was the PM in 60s when IAF BOMBED such that there was *not* a single casualty.

Really shame on you. Trying to twist the meanings. It is a FACT that IAF bombed Aizwal. Isn't it? It does not matter who was the PM. Your link says that people of Aizwal are demanding apology. Why are they demanding apology if it was nothing serious? Have they gone mad? Real shame on you because you want to twist the facts and give a different color.

Sikhism itself as a "separate" religion was defined by the British in 1940.

It is truly shameful that without any knowledge about the history of your own country you are reaching baseless and silly conclusions. Sikhism has been a separate religion from day one.

Sikhism was founded by Guru Nanak Sahib. Guru Nanak Sahib was born in a Hindu family but he never adopted Hindu religion. On the other hand he rejected Hinduism and its rituals. He refused to wear Janeo (a thread which is sacred to the Hindus). For a Hindu Janeo is obligatory (though most of the Hindus have forsaken it now). Mohammed, the founder of Islam, was born in a Quraishi family. He founded Islam and rejected the religion of the Quraishi Arabians. It will be wrong to call Islam as a branch of old Arabian religious belief. Moses, the founder of Judaism, was born in a family which worshipped idols. Moses rejected idol worship. Christ was born to Jewish parents. No one will define Christianity as an offshoot of Judaism. Similarly, Guru Nanak Sahib, though born to Hindu parents, founded a distinct religion. It is ignorance (or conspiracy) to call Sikhism as an offshoot of Hinduism. Guru Nanak Sahib had proclaimed in unequivocal words that the Sikhs are "neither Hindus nor Muslims" (na ham Hindu na Musalman).

Source http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/The-Sikhs.html

Emotional outburst at my end ? Hell no

Sleeping on LOC is not mistake. Reasons? No answers, just your emotional outbursts.

Do not believe media. All Indian media is 100% untrue. Only believe you. Reasons? No answers, just emotional outbursts.

Don't correct a mistake even without mention a particular word. Reasons? No answers, just emotional outbursts.

Thank you both of you. I am not interested in any more of your discussion which has no reasoning or logic except emotional outbursts.

[dr.jayakumar]

INDIA"S shame IS politicians.that concludes everything.
dr.jk

[airgun_novice]

On 13 April 1919 DO YOU GET IT ? HELLO ??? (knock-knock) Ah ! Never mind.

Are you able to understand plain English? What does the following mean?

In India twice air force has been used to bomb civilians. First few days after Jallianwala massacre, Gujranwala in Punjab was bombed.

You expect the dates to be mentioned for you? It shows your ignorance when Jallianwala Bagh took place and the fact India was also India before 1947 and partitioned in 1947.

If RTI application is not able to find records does not mean he is not called father of the nation. Your link itself clarifies it:

History has it
Father of the Nation is an honorific title given to a man considered the driving force behind the establishment of a nation. As per Wikipedia, it was Subhas Chandra Bose who used the term for Mahatma Gandhi, in a radio address from Singapore in 1944. Later, it was recognised by the Indian government. When Gandhi was assassinated, India's first prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru, in a radio address to the nation, had announced that the Father of the Nation "is no more."

And a lesson of geography for you - "Aizwal" is in MIZORAM - NOT NAGALAND

Did I mention that it is capital of nagaland? Reading things?

And another in history - INDIRA GANDHI, NOT NEHRU, was the PM in 60s when IAF BOMBED such that there was *not* a single casualty.

Really shame on you. Trying to twist the meanings. It is a FACT that IAF bombed Aizwal. Isn't it? It does not matter who was the PM. Your link says that people of Aizwal are demanding apology. Why are they demanding apology if it was nothing serious? Have they gone mad? Real shame on you because you want to twist the facts and give a different color.

Sikhism itself as a "separate" religion was defined by the British in 1940.

It is truly shameful that without any knowledge about the history of your own country you are reaching baseless and silly conclusions. Sikhism has been a separate religion from day one.

Sikhism was founded by Guru Nanak Sahib. Guru Nanak Sahib was born in a Hindu family but he never adopted Hindu religion. On the other hand he rejected Hinduism and its rituals. He refused to wear Janeo (a thread which is sacred to the Hindus). For a Hindu Janeo is obligatory (though most of the Hindus have forsaken it now). Mohammed, the founder of Islam, was born in a Quraishi family. He founded Islam and rejected the religion of the Quraishi Arabians. It will be wrong to call Islam as a branch of old Arabian religious belief. Moses, the founder of Judaism, was born in a family which worshipped idols. Moses rejected idol worship. Christ was born to Jewish parents. No one will define Christianity as an offshoot of Judaism. Similarly, Guru Nanak Sahib, though born to Hindu parents, founded a distinct religion. It is ignorance (or conspiracy) to call Sikhism as an offshoot of Hinduism. Guru Nanak Sahib had proclaimed in unequivocal words that the Sikhs are "neither Hindus nor Muslims" (na ham Hindu na Musalman).

Source http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/The-Sikhs.html

Emotional outburst at my end ? Hell no

Sleeping on LOC is not mistake. Reasons? No answers, just your emotional outbursts.

Do not believe media. All Indian media is 100% untrue. Only believe you. Reasons? No answers, just emotional outbursts.

Don't correct a mistake even without mention a particular word. Reasons? No answers, just emotional outbursts.

Thank you both of you. I am not interested in any more of your discussion which has no reasoning or logic except emotional outbursts.

British defining a religion and Nanakji starting a religion are different in plain English. But who's discussing religion here ? What for ?
For someone who likes to write a lot on law, plain English and logic aren't exactly forte. Alas!
Started out writing a long reply to every blatant digression that's listed above again, but thought "why?"; this would suffice -
regs & , A.

[gladiatorgarg]

Dear all if you ask me it really does not matter to a soldier if his countrymen loves him or hate him...it only matters to him weather he loves his duty and still have his honour left in him he fights for his "NAAM(NAME OF HIS UNIT/FAMILY)NAMAK(SELF EXPLNTRY)NISHAAN(THE FLAG OF HIS UNIT )....and he will lay his life for that only....those 5 men didn't commit any crime...it was an judgmental error and they paid heavily...if you cant respect them no problem no one can force you to do so...its DEMOCRACY...but please dont create ruckcuss ...they have done their duty and sleeping peacefully,please don't disturb dem....GBM NAGA, you have your own opinions about certain issues i respect them....but just remember we are just a tool of govt machinery....we are not the brain.....infact this govts are choosen by you all not by us the men in uniform remember!!!!and where are those people who ask for apologies from armed forces...when COMMON MEN are facing natural/man made disasters..and army is providing the relief and saving your ass....its very easy to shout about freedom....brotherhood....peace...blah blah blahhh from within the coccun of safety provided by the armed forces...but upholding them....as we say it in army one will bleed through all its holes,i rest at it...but its sad to see that in a forrum like this which i so far knew as an august gathering such narrow and partisan opinion persists about its own armed forces...its shameful...******* shameful

[fantumfan2003]

gladiatorgarg





M.

Dear all if you ask me it really does not matter to a soldier if his countrymen loves him or hate him...it only matters to him weather he loves his duty and still have his honour left in him he fights for his "NAAM(NAME OF HIS UNIT/FAMILY)NAMAK(SELF EXPLNTRY)NISHAAN(THE FLAG OF HIS UNIT )....and he will lay his life for that only....those 5 men didn't commit any crime...it was an judgmental error and they paid heavily...if you cant respect them no problem no one can force you to do so...its DEMOCRACY...but please dont create ruckcuss ...they have done their duty and sleeping peacefully,please don't disturb dem....GBM NAGA, you have your own opinions about certain issues i respect them....but just remember we are just a tool of govt machinery....we are not the brain.....infact this govts are choosen by you all not by us the men in uniform remember!!!!and where are those people who ask for apologies from armed forces...when COMMON MEN are facing natural/man made disasters..and army is providing the relief and saving your ass....its very easy to shout about freedom....brotherhood....peace...blah blah blahhh from within the coccun of safety provided by the armed forces...but upholding them....as we say it in army one will bleed through all its holes,i rest at it...but its sad to see that in a forrum like this which i so far knew as an august gathering such narrow and partisan opinion persists about its own armed forces...its shameful...******* shameful

[goodboy_mentor]

Dear gladiatorgarg, I am replying to this thread only because of you, since some forum members are bent on not being amenable to reasonable talk. They only want to hear what they want to listen. Their only motive seems to derail reasonable discussion and satisfaction of their ego. Nothing can be said about such a mindset.

Please do not respect my opinions unless you are convinced. Agree only if your conscience agrees.

If you note I have been saying from the very beginning that sleeping was a "mistake". You also agree that it was "judgmental error". Both mean one and the same. It is clear from example below:

The accident was due to judgmental error of driver.

The accident was due to mistake of driver.

Both the above sentences mean the same. What is point of creating a ruckus? If it was not a mistake then why others not following their precedence?

Regarding assertions by somebody to blindly not to believe what media publishes. These assertions are not supported by any proper reasoning.

Regards allegations in media about heinous crimes by those in uniform. These are serious allegations. The "uniform" is no license to indulge in such despicable acts. Constitution guarantees equality and justice. Unfortunately justice appears to be distant dream of countless citizens of this country. The things as they stand, it is basically a moral question of whether we honor the Constitution or not. Constitution and justice demands that free and fair investigations be done. If allegations are true, the accused stand trial and face justice. The maxim fiat justitia ruat coelum (let justice be done though the heavens may fall) is appropriate in this matter. No amount of excuse or reason is high enough to cover up the matter.

Regarding oldest profession. It is well known what it means. If someone is needlessly reading non existent meanings into it, it is nothing but unfortunate. Such people are not even able to differentiate that this is general ramblings section but they read the meaning of "definition" as per principles of statutory interpretation!