India's shame is its politicians

[gladiatorgarg]

Firstly i would like to thank ABM for starting this thread...any loss of life is painful...and specially if they from the armed forces...this is an act of cowardice by SAG of pAk army....no terrorists can achieve such surgical precision....this post must have been under survlnce for a long duration....they must have been shadowing their movement for dayz if not weeks...yes it a lackadaisical attitude if you see it from outside...but in an area which is absolutely peaceful w/o any untoward incident such relaxation sets in...and its common in both the sides....contrary to popular beliefs both the sides maintain a respectable distance from each other under normal circumstances...and i really believe that the local pak cdr might have been informed about this strike at the very end....so far as our politicians and our society goes as a whole they only remember fauj when their ass is on fire...and honestly speaking we in the forces are well aware of it,and we have learnt to live with it...respect or no respect from the society we will keep on doin our job because of our self respect and the respect for this holy land of our ancestors...again thanks ABM

[fantumfan2003]

gladiatorgarg

Kudos to you and our other men in uniform.
I salute all of you.....

M.

Firstly i would like to thank ABM for starting this thread...any loss of life is painful...and specially if they from the armed forces...this is an act of cowardice by SAG of pAk army....no terrorists can achieve such surgical precision....this post must have been under survlnce for a long duration....they must have been shadowing their movement for dayz if not weeks...yes it a lackadaisical attitude if you see it from outside...but in an area which is absolutely peaceful w/o any untoward incident such relaxation sets in...and its common in both the sides....contrary to popular beliefs both the sides maintain a respectable distance from each other under normal circumstances...and i really believe that the local pak cdr might have been informed about this strike at the very end....so far as our politicians and our society goes as a whole they only remember fauj when their ass is on fire...and honestly speaking we in the forces are well aware of it,and we have learnt to live with it...respect or no respect from the society we will keep on doin our job because of our self respect and the respect for this holy land of our ancestors...again thanks ABM

[fantumfan2003]

Don't believe what the media tells you. Not even Firstpost.

There is no shame in taking rest after a hard day's work. The Army folks are also humans, not robots.

M.

It is greater shame that soldiers were sleeping while on duty. Therefore were shot dead with only single shots from close range. Something seriously wrong with attitude or psychology of the soldiers or their working conditions.

Internal army investigations into the killing of five Indian soldiers on the Line of Control earlier this month has found evidence the men were killed as they slept

Source http://www.firstpost.com/india/exclusiv ... 52345.html

[hamiclar01]

Don't believe what the media tells you. Not even Firstpost.

Its not only firstpost
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 11613.aspx
http://www.asianage.com/india/5-soldier ... t-dead-305

There is no shame in taking rest after a hard day's work. The Army folks are also humans, not robots.

Not even when your work involves guarding the borders?
I take it you will excuse a doctor who falls asleep in the middle of an op after a hard day.

I'm going to sleep uneasily tonight. If the border sentries have dozed off, who is protecting me?

[StampMaster]

Its very unfortunate that we Indians always busy with something which is not really important when compared to your constitutional rights. Forget weekend and festivals, Independence day, Republic Day and election day are just another holiday to sit on couch and crib, complaint and find finally hit the bed for the everyday routine.

Last Independence Day 2012, Telangana region was in high tension with bandth. Riots for a separate state. And this was a common over 3-4 months continuously. Just because there were so many holidays for schools and office. Offices and schools have declared August 15, Indian Independence Day as a working day to compensate holidays given for bandh.

We have (probably most of people in my circle have) lot of expectations from the judiciary , government and also god . "Roads theek nai hai", "rape karne walon ko capital punishment deni chahiye", "roz traffic ka problem hai" etc. Why dont they complaint to the concerned authorities, file RTI or send a legal notice.

If one cannot move their AS of the couch its no good to complaint. Pardon me for introducing reality to people.

[fantumfan2003]

hamiclar01

I have written that "If its indeed true that five slept and one was on guard duty, that needs to be corrected. 50/50 seems more practical"

The links you posted mention speculation of specialist troops, silenced weapons, not wearing vests etc. etc.

If one were to believe all that then it suggests involvement of PA SF units like the SSG. Like all SF units they are masters of their trade and one might say that our boys payed for their mistakes with their lives......but will some one ever tell us the real truth about what happened ? I guess not.

Usually I am the one ranting about returns for the taxes I pay to the government but don't you think you are being harsh in your judgement ?

How much does a surgeon charge these days for a surgery ?
And what is the cost of six NCOs to the taxpayer ?

I don't know myself but I think that's being too harsh to our boys in uniform.

I was told that our boys drink water in Kashmir in which we city dwellers will not even put our foot in. To me this itself is above and beyond the call of duty. They surely deserve more respect and praise from us.

Agree ?

M.

Don't believe what the media tells you. Not even Firstpost.

Its not only firstpost
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 11613.aspx
http://www.asianage.com/india/5-soldier ... t-dead-305

There is no shame in taking rest after a hard day's work. The Army folks are also humans, not robots.

Not even when your work involves guarding the borders?
I take it you will excuse a doctor who falls asleep in the middle of an op after a hard day.

I'm going to sleep uneasily tonight. If the border sentries have dozed off, who is protecting me?

[airgun_novice]

Well said FF2003 - Education and Values System should and must begin at home. I daresay, the folks ought to show their kids movies like LOC-Kargil, Border, Tango Charlie, Haqueeqat (B&W - Dharmendra's) - make that at least a movie/ month. Show them also US-British WWII movies, so they shall see the sheer grit, patriotism and determination displayed by the Brits, the Germans, the Americans during the global War that lasted over 6 years. These types of lessons would do our kids a greater good than them watching the "item-overdose" movies that get dumped on us under the pretext of Freedom of Creativity.

Now back to the soldiers -> We are told that they were asleep and one went to relieve himself. Howsoever, safe that region would have been this scenario seems extremely unrealistic (to me). Why ? The Maratha Regiment had come to relieve the Bihar Regiment. How many instances do you know when all the soldiers actually sleep during or just after the change of guard ? Why would one soldier actually go quite a distance away to relieve himself when 5 others were "dead asleep" (excuse - no pun intended here) - remember the news item saying that it would have been no use for him to give away his position by firing back at those Pakistani intruders ? My take on this situation is this: While one jawan went off to relieve himself - the five others were pretty much awake... till they got hit by a chemical device, could be a simple chloroform-based - and lost consciousness, thus offering easy target to the *brave and professional* Pakistanis to creep up and plug a hole here and there through everyone "asleep" there. Now likely that the one who had gone to relieve himself, heard this bursts and then realized that all he had (probably) was the pistol on his belt or the army knife in his boot as his INSAS or M-16 or whatever stayed back at the base since he did not want it dangling into the salty stream. That's how he would have got a burst in turn injuring him critically as he stumbled into the august presence of the Pakistani bravehearts. Equally possible is that he was asked to shut up and line up with the sanitized official version considering the great summit with the great "Sharif" of the great nation of Pakistan ahead.

Of course, please forgive me for differing with the intelligent & patriotic English press along with the babudom of similar virtues of our great country. And yes, Safarigent - I totally agree with your title.

[airgun_novice]

Another point of the story reported by english press - HT - in this case.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 11613.aspx

"The probe is also looking into a few other issues. Three of the soldiers had bullet injuries in the chest — a sign that they were either not wearing bulletproof vests or the protection offered by the jackets was ineffective."

Reading the last line - why that "either-or" ? 3 of them had bullets in the chest and the probe (which I think must be a human committee) are *LOOKING* ... - A cursory look at the bodies would have been sufficient (as per me) to see if those poor souls were wearing the jackets or not. "Times" (now the pun here ) and lines like these make it tough for me to control even in such serious a scenario. Oops - sorry !

[StampMaster]

there is a serious crunch in new recruits in the armed forces. And the existing ones are working over time without their perks disbursed as promised. What more can we expect from those poor jawans.

[gladiatorgarg]

I would like to burst the bubble of myth that their is shortage of recruits in both offr n other caders of IA...thats a hoax...secondly in our parliamentary democratic system its very difficult to get a quick decision...but if you all remember the defence minister said in public that he has instructed the local army cdrs to retaliate in the most befitting manner as per the ground situation AFTER MUCH PERSUATION BY TOP ARMY BRASS....steps has been taken and for sometime things will be quite for now...all that we need is shorter reaction time by our politicians....and so far as security of our country men goes,to reach your homes they will have to mutilate a many of us...and be sure its GOD DAMNED IMPOSSIBLE....THEY HAVE LEARNT IT THE HARDER WAY THIS TIME....SO SLEEP WELL GENTLEMEN...WE ARE AWAKE

[fantumfan2003]

M.

SO SLEEP WELL GENTLEMEN...WE ARE AWAKE

[mundaire]

Typed out a long response... deleted it, as it wouldn't have been appreciated by those in uniform OR by those in civvies...

Suffice to paraphrase Joseph de Maistre - we all get the leaders/ government we deserve!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[brihacharan]

Gladiatorgarg wrote....
..so far as our politicians and our society goes as a whole they only remember fauj when their ass is on fire.

> Can anyone think of an idea on "How to Keep their A&$#*!" permanently ON FIRE
Briha

[hamiclar01]

How much does a surgeon charge these days for a surgery ?

I don't know about things in your part of the country, but in the seven years I spent in government service in Delhi, we didn't charge anybody for the treatment they received. This is despite the routine long working days and 48 to 56 hour calls we endured.

Yes, you can argue not all hospitals are the same. I can say that the standards I expect from the army are different from the police.

This thread was anyway a rant fest, and has now diversified to include science fiction (chloroform bombs ). I'm staying away.

[fantumfan2003]

hamiclar01,

Around where I live, the best way to go bankrupt is to land on an operating table with some serious malady and then spend time in the hospital recovering post-op.

Comparing Surgeons and NCOs is simply not fair. Which ever way you want to look at it. Both are masters of their own trade and valued too.
But a surgeon will never take a bullet for his country (unless he is from AFMC). The soldier will.

M.

How much does a surgeon charge these days for a surgery ?

I don't know about things in your part of the country, but in the seven years I spent in government service in Delhi, we didn't charge anybody for the treatment they received. This is despite the routine long working days and 48 to 56 hour calls we endured.

Yes, you can argue not all hospitals are the same. I can say that the standards I expect from the army are different from the police.

This thread was anyway a rant fest, and has now diversified to include science fiction (chloroform bombs ). I'm staying away.