School shooting in CT

[timmy]

It is easy enough to say that someone is mad and that mad people should not be allowed to have guns.

The issue is, though, that we here at IFG promote gun rights for all citizens, and depriving someone of a right requires a legal judgment. For instance, one has to be convicted of a crime to be declared guilty, deprived of their right to freedom, and sent to jail.

But in the situation we are talking about, no crime has been committed -- we are saying that mad people shouldn't be allowed to own a gun in order to prevent a crime. So, a legal judgment has to be made that determines that a person is actually mad. Of course, not all psychologists would agree on an individual's diagnosis: is a person mad, and if so, is the level of madness sufficient to prevent them from exercising responsible gun ownership? As our thinking members contemplate such a question, it will be noted that this is a very complex legal issue with wide public policy ramifications!

Another question comes up regarding children and parents. Some parents let their kids do anything. Others are quite strict. Then there are many shades of liberal and strictness in between. Just because I was very strict with my kids when they were raised around my guns doesn't mean that my neighbor would raise his kids the same way.

Regarding Israel, it is true that military forces do carry automatic weapons and that military forces are much more a part of public life than in other countries. However, I would point out that military service is not what one might term "lax" in Israel, and that military personnel that are on duty and carrying arms are under command. This is not the same thing as you or I picking up our fully automatic M16 or AK47 and toting it down to the local shopping mall because we want to by a greeting card for our mother.

I do not see the point of the military carrying fully automatic weapons in public as part of the issue. The issue here is private RKBA and ownership of firearms. The issue of the thread is the mass shooting at a public school.

If we are going to talk about public policy and what security forces are doing, how many of them there are, where they will be stationed, and whether they are carrying automatic weapons, fine. That is a valid topic of discussion.

If we are going to talk about private citizens owning firearms, what types they ought to own, and where they should be allowed to carry them, fine, that is also a valid topic of discussion.

However, for the purposes of having a discussion on either or both of these two topics, it does not serve well, to mix them. They are two separate issues and need to be addressed as such: as public security and as private firearm ownership.

Regarding the picture of three Israeli women carrying arms, without knowing anything about the circumstances behind the photograph, it does not carry any special meaning to me.

[timmy]

Horrible incidents, the shooting in CT and the knife attack on 22 children in China by a lone madman (China Knife attack on 22 school children). My heartfelt sympathies for the families and the kids to witnessed these crimes.

What I can infer from all the news I read is that the mother bought the guns for the deranged kid as he was not old enough to buy them on his won. Big mistake.


Best-
Vikram

Well put, Vikram, I fully agree.

[kanwar76]

I just saw photos of victims, its really sad. As a father of a 8 year old daughter I can't even imagine something like this happening with her.

For first time in my life i was having second thoughts on RKBA and if this incident make me think otherwise, I wonder how antis or people sitting on the fence going to react. Brace on Anerica, you are going to face some tough laws coming your way.

R.I.P kiddos, hope God packed some good gifts for you when he decided to call you back in middle of festive season

-Inder

[Arien73]

Hi Kanwar76,
I too being a staunch advocate of gun ownership.. and having two kids ,age of 4
and 5 yrs ... is having second thoughts on RKBA...and i am based in washington dc..and whomever i spoke to they had extreme anger against NRA and the republicans..who had always opposed gun control.... but definately some thing will come up... in my opinion..every disturbed person suffering from some mental ailment should be finger printed in the doctors office on his first visit with full profile of the person and his family attached and then shared with FBI databse and local police stations and gun dealers and most important with vendors in NRA shows .. so that it would be impossible for a derranged person to acquire a gun... further such person family and homes should be visited regularily to see how they are keeping and storing their guns if any, and whether they are in compliance or not...

[YogiBear]

Aloha,

I stand corrected.

The photo of the 3 women with M-16s is very famous.

I guess if those photos are published, they should be captioned.

But, AFAIK, there has never been an incident like Connecticut in Isreal.

[Mark]

Hi Kanwar76,
I too being a staunch advocate of gun ownership.. and having two kids ,age of 4
and 5 yrs ... is having second thoughts on RKBA...and i am based in washington dc..and whomever i spoke to they had extreme anger against NRA and the republicans..who had always opposed gun control.... but definately some thing will come up... in my opinion..every disturbed person suffering from some mental ailment should be finger printed in the doctors office on his first visit with full profile of the person and his family attached and then shared with FBI databse and local police stations and gun dealers and most important with vendors in NRA shows .. so that it would be impossible for a derranged person to acquire a gun... further such person family and homes should be visited regularily to see how they are keeping and storing their guns if any, and whether they are in compliance or not...

Arien,

It would appear the shooter took the guns from his mothers house after killiing her. So he killed his mother, thats a crime, he took the guns to the school that's a crime, he committed a crime wearing an armored vest, thats a crime. Obviously laws were not on this shooter agenda. So because, 1 person out of how many millions commits a crime and the fault is the responsibility of gun owners or the "NRA" that represents many of them. Even the Brady campaign ranked Connecticut as one of the what, top 2 or 3 safest sates according to gun laws? (Gotta run now, will find the actual rank later)

I fail to see how you can even compare this to RKBA, which is a RIGHT according to the constitution. Everyone can be clamoring about this shooting, but no one is yelling that these people need medical help and care. Why is it that in this country `suicide is the second leading cause of death in this age range yet no one addresses it unless the ill individual shoots someone?

[inplainsight]

This is sick, the Westboro Church plans to picket the funerals!

http://www.examiner.com/article/westbor ... aising-god

[Sakobav]

kandarp

US has freedom of speech and common citizens can exercise this right to a great extent unlike many other nations which dont allow their citizens this franchise including India also..
For every such loony nut there has been million more genuine outburst and pouring of love and sympathy for the victims and that community. It behooves us to focus on the positives during this tragedy and its aftermath and not highlight the negatives for now would be my sincere advise. We need to pray that none of us or near and dear ones is ever caught in such a mayhem purported by an insane person, mob, govt or civil war!!

[inplainsight]

I understand freedom of speech, but honestly picketing the funeral of children is beyond sick! It's take a very special type of crazy to do such a thing.

[goodboy_mentor]

It would appear the shooter took the guns from his mothers house after killiing her. So he killed his mother, thats a crime, he took the guns to the school that's a crime, he committed a crime wearing an armored vest, thats a crime. Obviously laws were not on this shooter agenda. So because, 1 person out of how many millions commits a crime and the fault is the responsibility of gun owners or the "NRA" that represents many of them. Even the Brady campaign ranked Connecticut as one of the what, top 2 or 3 safest sates according to gun laws? (Gotta run now, will find the actual rank later)

I fail to see how you can even compare this to RKBA, which is a RIGHT according to the constitution. Everyone can be clamoring about this shooting, but no one is yelling that these people need medical help and care. Why is it that in this country `suicide is the second leading cause of death in this age range yet no one addresses it unless the ill individual shoots someone?

[SriramK]

This is sick, the Westboro Church plans to picket the funerals!

http://www.examiner.com/article/westbor ... aising-god

I'm amazed that such a group has been around for so long. If this was here, they'd get beaten up by all sorts of people - from common citizens to the police. I'm utterly amazed at the tolerance that the US has shown them.

I hope the parents of the victims find solace, and the memorial is peaceful. I hope the local law authorities make it illegal for WBC to picket at the school.

[striker]

this act was done by a mentally depressed boy ad there is nothing to be compared to gun ownership and RKBA , if he dosent have the guns then he would have picked the knifes to do this act .

[inplainsight]

This is sick, the Westboro Church plans to picket the funerals!

http://www.examiner.com/article/westbor ... aising-god

I'm amazed that such a group has been around for so long. If this was here, they'd get beaten up by all sorts of people - from common citizens to the police.

and...

[SriramK]

and...

Depending on the time and the day, our media would either make this kind of violence the biggest breaking news ever, or it would go unreported as one of the common daily occurrences around the country. I doubt the public here would stop before each one of them would need an ICU. WBC would be shut down within two weeks of inception. But this is going OT.

I wonder if any politician there has already capitalized on this and started drafting laws against guns and the right to bear arms.

[Anand]

This is deplorable. The magnitude of this tragedy is astounding and it is no less than what happened at any of the school or mall or theatre shootings. It is not my attempt to trivialize this at all. But every time there is either a crime comitted with afirearm or misuse of a firearm, the first thing every one talks about is gun control or the laws.

As another member mentioned, several laws were already broken by the time the deranged person reached the school. The point is why this sort of thing has been happening at all. Afterall firarms have been freely available to U.S Citizens from at least after their Civil War. From the time of their independence in 1776 up until 1934 there were hardly any Federal gun laws at all. Those laws that existed, were primarily aimed at colorored people and immigrants and were mostly state laws IIRC.

So what has changed in American society that is causing these shootings? ( For that matter any country that has seen this kind of vilolence.)
There appears to be quite a bit more of delinquincy and disciplinary problems among school children now than earlier. This may or may not be related to corporal punishment and laws against parents spanking their children.
Whether accepted or not, I believe that movies and video games may contribute to vilolence depending on that persons
personality. To top all this Schools, by federal law are " Gun Free Zones" now.

Add to all this, the politicization of every thing especially by the media. The root cause is elsewhere! The most common feature of or profile of these " gunmen" seems to be that they are typically loners, antisocial, may have had behaviouaral or other associated problems and may have previously committed crimes. So what exactly is going on now that is different from the past, that is creating more of these crazies.

"Copycat or inspirational" crimes are another thing, when its easy for some one to shoot up a school yard because every one knows there will be no way for the victims to defend themselves, then there will be repeats. Why is it that none of these guys attack a military base or Police station? Thats because guys in there are capable of immediately retaliating.
These guys, in their warped sense of reality seem to want to sensationalize their last minutes as much as possible, that would require an easy target with enough time before the cops arrive.

Anand